["The Dragon's Den - Dragon Age Community Thread"]

[Astus_01]

The mass Calling was simulated by the Fear Demon. The fade portion of the Adamant mission is concerned with stopping it, lol. The Wardens mention afterwards that it's gone.

 

[deleted-1891375]

Hey, Powers is back.

 

[powersp]

The Calling signals the coming of the end of a Warden. If left unchecked, they'll eventually turn into ghouls. To avoid that fate they go into the Deep Roads to strike one last blow against the Darkspawn and die on their own terms.

Regarding Erimond, the Wardens themselves contacted Tevinter (and others) for help regarding their Calling. They have no reason whatsoever to think that it's fake because there is no precedent for it. I'm sure they acknowledged that all of them hearing it was odd but that was an aspect of why they were so desperate. They could find no answers as to why it was occurring to them all and were consigned to the fact that they would all die anyway, so that's what made it easier for them to accept the blood magic compromise that Erimond put forward.

Well, to be clear, it was only Clarel that agreed to it. The rest had to follow suit or get the fuck out of dodge. Also, I'd like to stress that Corypheus had infiltrated the Warden's ranks as a high ranking member (either Larius or Janeka) thus he might have helped the idea gain more traction than it might have without him.

Speaking of the Wardens as a general group though, only the ones in Orlais and Ferelden (and presumably the Free Marches) were the ones following Clarel. You've still got a bunch in the Anderfels (and other areas) and we don't know how they reacted to the fake Calling (or even if they heard it to begin with). Though, they seem to be dealing with their own shit if the epilogue is to be believed.

tl;dr - Wardens were desperate, figured they were all gonna die, wanted to hunt and kill both remaining old gods before then, Clarel agreed to blood magic idea, shit hit the fan.

Although, I would have expected some of the Wardens to follow Loghain/Stroud/Alistair away from the crazy French lady. lol

Yeah, but there is also no precedent for EVERY Warden feeling the calling at the same time either. Also, I recall nothing in the game that says Clarel contacetd Tevinter for help, but even if that's true that still doesn't change the fact that they don't know Erimond from a pile of shit. He's not a Warden, and if his plan doesn't sound 100% batshit insane then Idk what does lol. It simply cannot work. It WILL fail, even if his intentions were really what he claimed about helping the Wardens end all the blights, there is ZERO chance it will work. The number of Wardens in general isn't great to begin with, they're killing half of them to turn the other half into demons(in a nutshell), so we can hardly call it a demon army can we? It's a tiny invading force for something like the DR. If every demon created kills 1000 darkspawn before falling, they won't even make a scratch. They certainly won't find the last two Old Gods before the ds either. The ds have the numbers(WAY have the numbers) and home field advantage in the search. Plus they've probably been looking for the last 10+ years already & have a big head start. Even if they found one of them somehow, what's gonna be left of the "army" to kill it by then? Then after that, should they somehow get that far(no way in hell btw lol), there's still one more to go. Like I said, this plan has a 0% chance of working, and it's quite obvious if you think about it even a little bit. Well apparently neither Clarel or any other Warden besides Hawke's friend did lol. Seriously, they'd be just as well off just marching on the DR as they are. No blood magic rituals. No demons. Just a big GW party. There's no denying they'd have the same chance of success as this dumbass idea.

Now you say Clarel is the only one that agreed to it, but that's what not what I took from it. I mean they certainly could have got the fuck outta dodge with Hawke's Warden friend when he rolled, but they ALL stayed. That says to me they were ALL on board. And the fact that one Warden was indeed there speaking sense about the plan being retarded, and no one else apparently saw the light on that one is just absurd to me.

Finally, who's gonna be controlling these demons once the ritual is done? Did Clarel even bother to ask Erimond as obvious/simple a question as that? It would seem not because it WON'T be a Warden, that much is obvious, and that should be quite disturbing to Clarel(and any other Warden for that matter). Clarel's a mage for chrissake lol! She should know better for sure.

Oh...and I also can't swallow the whole "they were desperate" excuse either. To me that's the "dog ate my homework" excuse for bad writing/plot holes/characters doing really retarded shit in games. It's what we say when we have no good explanation for people doing really dumb shit in games lol. It's apparently why all the mages in DA2 resorted to Blood Magic, it's also why the quarians decided to attack the geth in the middle of the Reaper invasion in ME3, and on down the line I could go. To me, it's what people defending the behavior say when there really is no good defense/reason for said behavior. It just doesn't cut it for me. Mainly because it implies that everyone reacts to crisis, mortal danger, desperate situations, etc. exactly the same way....badly via really retarded decisions. That's not true. Some people are actually better under those circumstances, and plenty can still at least maintain their composure and ability to think rationally. Except in these games it seems lol.

 

[AnimeKing2009]

The Calling signals the coming of the end of a Warden. If left unchecked, they'll eventually turn into ghouls. To avoid that fate they go into the Deep Roads to strike one last blow against the Darkspawn and die on their own terms.

Regarding Erimond, the Wardens themselves contacted Tevinter (and others) for help regarding their Calling. They have no reason whatsoever to think that it's fake because there is no precedent for it. I'm sure they acknowledged that all of them hearing it was odd but that was an aspect of why they were so desperate. They could find no answers as to why it was occurring to them all and were consigned to the fact that they would all die anyway, so that's what made it easier for them to accept the blood magic compromise that Erimond put forward.

Well, to be clear, it was only Clarel that agreed to it. The rest had to follow suit or get the fuck out of dodge. Also, I'd like to stress that Corypheus had infiltrated the Warden's ranks as a high ranking member (either Larius or Janeka) thus he might have helped the idea gain more traction than it might have without him.

Speaking of the Wardens as a general group though, only the ones in Orlais and Ferelden (and presumably the Free Marches) were the ones following Clarel. You've still got a bunch in the Anderfels (and other areas) and we don't know how they reacted to the fake Calling (or even if they heard it to begin with). Though, they seem to be dealing with their own shit if the epilogue is to be believed.

tl;dr - Wardens were desperate, figured they were all gonna die, wanted to hunt and kill both remaining old gods before then, Clarel agreed to blood magic idea, shit hit the fan.

Although, I would have expected some of the Wardens to follow Loghain/Stroud/Alistair away from the crazy French lady. lol

Yeah, but there is also no precedent for EVERY Warden feeling the calling at the same time either. Also, I recall nothing in the game that says Clarel contacetd Tevinter for help, but even if that's true that still doesn't change the fact that they don't know Erimond from a pile of shit. He's not a Warden, and if his plan doesn't sound 100% batshit insane then Idk what does lol. It simply cannot work. It WILL fail, even if his intentions were really what he claimed about helping the Wardens end all the blights, there is ZERO chance it will work. The number of Wardens in general isn't great to begin with, they're killing half of them to turn the other half into demons(in a nutshell), so we can hardly call it a demon army can we? It's a tiny invading force for something like the DR. If every demon created kills 1000 darkspawn before falling, they won't even make a scratch. They certainly won't find the last two Old Gods before the ds either. The ds have the numbers(WAY have the numbers) and home field advantage in the search. Plus they've probably been looking for the last 10+ years already & have a big head start. Even if they found one of them somehow, what's gonna be left of the "army" to kill it by then? Then after that, should they somehow get that far(no way in hell btw lol), there's still one more to go. Like I said, this plan has a 0% chance of working, and it's quite obvious if you think about it even a little bit. Well apparently neither Clarel or any other Warden besides Hawke's friend did lol. Seriously, they'd be just as well off just marching on the DR as they are. No blood magic rituals. No demons. Just a big GW party. There's no denying they'd have the same chance of success as this dumbass idea.

Now you say Clarel is the only one that agreed to it, but that's what not what I took from it. I mean they certainly could have got the fuck outta dodge with Hawke's Warden friend when he rolled, but they ALL stayed. That says to me they were ALL on board. And the fact that one Warden was indeed there speaking sense about the plan being retarded, and no one else apparently saw the light on that one is just absurd to me.

Finally, who's gonna be controlling these demons once the ritual is done? Did Clarel even bother to ask Erimond as obvious/simple a question as that? It would seem not because it WON'T be a Warden, that much is obvious, and that should be quite disturbing to Clarel(and any other Warden for that matter). Clarel's a mage for chrissake lol! She should know better for sure.

Oh...and I also can't swallow the whole "they were desperate" excuse either. To me that's the "dog ate my homework" excuse for bad writing/plot holes/characters doing really retarded shit in games. It's what we say when we have no good explanation for people doing really dumb shit in games lol. It's apparently why all the mages in DA2 resorted to Blood Magic, it's also why the quarians decided to attack the geth in the middle of the Reaper invasion in ME3, and on down the line I could go. To me, it's what people defending the behavior say when there really is no good defense/reason for said behavior. It just doesn't cut it for me. Mainly because it implies that everyone reacts to crisis, mortal danger, desperate situations, etc. exactly the same way....badly via really retarded decisions. That's not true. Some people are actually better under those circumstances, and plenty can still at least maintain their composure and ability to think rationally. Except in these games it seems lol.

only a Grey Warden can kill a Archdemon period. They drank the joining cup willing to die for the job. And all of them find out they are getting it at the same time seemingly meaning the end of the Wardens. With Two archdemons and two possible Blights left to come if the Wardens died out there is nothing to stop the sixth Blight. So they decided to end the possibility for Blights before they died. Thus they turned to Blood magic the same way the commander at The Wardens keep did in the dlc of the first game with her Blood mage Avernus.

The Wardens don't forbid Blood magic if it achieves their overall goal of wiping out Darkspawn.

So under the assumption they were all biting it they were desperate to kill the Two remaining old God dragons before they could be found and corrupted by Darkspawn to cause a blight. They got trolled by a Darkspawn magister in the process but their intent had the right mindset behind it. Saving Thedas from Doom if the Wardens all fell before those dragons were dealt with. And the demons gave a advantage against the Darkspawn numbers they otherwise couldn't get through with just the Wardens own men. They didn't know Corypheus was alive so had no way of knowing the calling they got was bullshit. Hence their desperation to hurry and deal with the Dragons before it was too late.

 

[powersp]

Did you even read my post? If you have then ya might wanna reread it. I've basically riddled everything you say here full of holes already, but what the hell...I'll bite lol.

only a Grey Warden can kill a Archdemon period. They drank the joining cup willing to die for the job. And all of them find out they are getting it at the same time seemingly meaning the end of the Wardens. With Two archdemons and two possible Blights left to come if the Wardens died out there is nothing to stop the sixth Blight. So they decided to end the possibility for Blights before they died. Thus they turned to Blood magic the same way the commander at The Wardens keep did in the dlc of the first game with her Blood mage Avernus.

And you really think this plan is a good one? Nah...forget calling it even a good one. You really think this plan has ANY chance at all of working? Any better than just the GW themselves marching on the DR as they are? If so, then pray tell me how. What in my above analysis of how this plan would actually work out do you disagree with? Also, the Orlesian Wardens are not all there is in the world. Even if the Orlesian Wardens all die, there will be others to fight the next Blight. Others to rebuild the order in Orlais. Every country in Thedas is presumed to have a GW presence. It's not like they're all that's left in the world of the whole order, and I'm not even sure where you'd get that idea.

The Wardens don't forbid Blood magic if it achieves their overall goal of wiping out Darkspawn.

I never said or even implied that. Duncan says the Wardens are OK with BM all the way back in Origins. Not sure where you're getting this idea either lol.

So under the assumption they were all biting it they were desperate to kill the Two remaining old God dragons before they could be found and corrupted by Darkspawn to cause a blight. They got trolled by a Darkspawn magister in the process but their intent had the right mindset behind it. Saving Thedas from Doom if the Wardens all fell before those dragons were dealt with. And the demons gave a advantage against the Darkspawn numbers they otherwise couldn't get through with just the Wardens own men. They didn't know Corypheus was alive so had no way of knowing the calling they got was bullshit. Hence their desperation to hurry and deal with the Dragons before it was too late.

Ahhh there's that ole "desperation excuse" again. Still as futile as ever too lol. I don't believe that desperation would push an entire order like the GW into a plan that literally has zero chance of succeeding. The demons do NOT give them an advantage. Their numbers would be halved, and even at full numbers the Wardens in any one country are hardly an "army" in size. So with half of them now dead, you really have no army. You have a small force of "shock troops" that has exactly ZERO chance of doing anything except getting wiped out & taking out some darkspawn with them. There is no Blight atm. The DR are teeming with ds. There is NO WAY this demon "army" is "getting through" to anything except their own demise.

 

[CHawk15]

Do you think that the magister's used Blood Magic to "persuade" the Warden Leadership in the South down this road and played on the desperation caused by the mass calling. They played the "this is your best shot to take the DS down before you all become one" card, all they had to do was convince Clariel and a few select others and the rest would fall in line. I think this was a plan conceived by Corypheus and the fear demon we encountered in the Fade near the end of that sequence.

What made the Grey Wardens great in Origins was Duncan and the Hero of Ferelden (depending on how you chose to play him). Wardens are people as well, and are exposed to the darkness that few others see. As a result, their sense of morality and what is an acceptale loss is different than a normal society. I mean look at some of the possibilities in Origins. You can leave Redcliffe village to die and give Connor to a Pride Demon to gain power. You can allow Avernus to continue horrific experiments in the name of better understanding the taint and the power it wields. You can sacrifice a clan of Dalish elves to Werewolves just because the leader of the clan is an revenge centric asshole. You can sacrifice the mages because some of them became abominations and you can sacrifice the Legion of the Dead to become a Golem Army. Not to mention defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes for the power of the Reaver. Are any of these choices less moral than sacrificing your fellow Wardens into Demons and making one last desperate attempt into the DR to take out the last 2 Old Gods before they all die ? I often wonder if the HoF had been a more experienced Warden or if Riordan had been found sooner, how would the picture of the Wardens have changed. We really don't know anything about the Grey Wardens as a whole, we only know the HoF an Alistair that were relatively new recruits and carried the ideal of the Wardens in their actions. That is the Grey Wardens protrayed in Origins. Since then, we've come to discover that not all Wardens share the same ideal and it seems that the older Wardens will do whatever it takes to protect, even if it means doing something that would be found appalling in normal society. .

So what should they have done if they truly believed that the order was about to perish ? (which I believe at least the Wardens in Ferelden and Orlais did) Just do what they normally do and let the world succumb to the Blight ? Make one final great trek into the DR and hope you get lucky ? I mean the options here weren't great to begin with, if they felt the Demons would give them the best chance of accomplishing the mission, then I can see it as a possibility.

 

[Astus_01]

Clarel was the Warden Commander of Orlais and the Wardens aren't a group to brook insubordination. What she says, goes and I have no problem believing that the Wardens beneath her would choose to follow her. Although, it's less of a choice and more of a duty.

I'm sure there was a bit of discussion in their upper ranks that we're not privy to though. I mean, following Adamant, we're basically told that there are no more Senior Wardens left to take charge of the survivors (should you choose to leave Stroud in The Fade) and that tells me that they all either agreed to the plan or those that didn't, were executed.

Again, this is just one portion of the Wardens. We don't know how the Wardens elsewhere were reacting. I agree that this was explained pretty poorly though because we don't know how far exactly the fake calling extended. Hearing Weisshapput's response would have appreciated. I mean, if Clarel was desperate enough to contact Tevinter then surely she contacted HQ as well. Like I said before, Corypheus did invade the order as a high ranking member so he could have pulled a few strings.

Erimond's the shadiest motherfucker in the game, lol. I don't know how anyone could trust him given his whole manner. Still, Clarel was desperate for help from anywhere (I don't care you don't like the desperation argument, you're gonna have to deal with it )

Sure, I would have loved a bigger explanation regarding The Wardens but I hardly feel what was in the game ruins them. For me, they've always been a shady organisation willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. I just wish my Warden was around to just scream in Clarel's face when she decided to take up Erimond's offer, lol.

 

[CHawk15]

I thnk Erimond probaby utilized Blood Magic to convince Clarel to go down this path. Much the same way as it was described in the Origins DLC.

 

[powersp]

I'm starting to think I'm just tired of the rut BW has been in for quite a while now. The overall theme of 4 outta the last 5 BW games has been gather up your allies/armies/specialists to go kill the bad guy at the end. It's getting old for me. DA2 is the only one of the last 5 BW games that didn't follow that formula, and I didn't care for that one very much as you know. Origins, DAI, and both of the last 2 ME games follow this formula. They're just becoming too formulaic & predictable now I think.

 

[CHawk15]

I would agree with that. DA and ME are essentially the same game, one set in Sci-Fi land and the other in Swords and Sorcery land. It'd be nice to see the games diverge a bit more. This is the kinda thing that EA has done for much longer than that, so I wonder how much that plays a role.

 

[powersp]

I personally don't believe EA has anything to do with the creation/development of BW games, but I can't prove it lol. So you could be onto something there. I just know THAT'S something they need to hit the reset button on & try something else. I'm quite sure we're not the only ones that have noticed this rut, and also not the only ones looking for some change in that department.

 

[deleted-1891375]

 

[Astus_01]

The only game that didn't stick to the formula got shit on and that was DA2. I really think DA2 could have been fantastic, given the proper amount of development time. I'm hoping Bioware recognise that that was the prime issue with the game rather than them changing the formula.

 

[deleted-1891375]

I personally don't believe EA has anything to do with the creation/development of BW games, but I can't prove it lol

You have to think of it like this: EA owns both Bioware as a studio and their intellectual property.

If you purchased a studio, published their titles and owned the rights to all of their major trademarks, would you not expect to have a say in the direction of the projects? There would have to be oversight. Sure, you're not going to be in their offices, banging out lines of code or scratching concept art but, when it comes down to it, it's your job to make sure their projects are profitable and their products are accessible. To do that, you or whomever you might appoint to handle the task are going to pop in and say a few words.

 

[powersp]

The only game that didn't stick to the formula got shit on and that was DA2. I really think DA2 could have been fantastic, given the proper amount of development time. I'm hoping Bioware recognise that that was the prime issue with the game rather than them changing the formula.

Well considering they went right back to that formula in DAI, I think your hopes may have already been dashed my friend lol. DA2 didn't have a coherent story. Few things within the game actually interrelated to each other in the mq line. That was the main problem for me along with the recycled environments & retarded behavior by major players toward the end of the game. I don't believe dev time would've change those things very much.

You have to think of it like this: EA owns both Bioware as a studio and their intellectual property.

If you purchased a studio, published their titles and owned the rights to all of their major trademarks, would you not expect to have a say in the direction of the projects? There would have to be oversight. Sure, you're not going to be in their offices, banging out lines of code or scratching concept art but, when it comes down to it, it's your job to make sure their projects are profitable and their products are accessible. To do that, you or whomever you might appoint to handle the task are going to pop in and say a few words.

My statement that they wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with it is incorrect. I really meant they wouldn't have that much to do with it. Sure they'll check in, be in the overall loop during the dev process, and have say in what happens there. However, the vein in which we were talking about it? That 4 outta the last 5 BW games have been following "The Formula"(as I will now dub it lol), and it's gettin' old? No. I don't believe that's EA. I believe that's BW. If that was EA's doing, then it'd prolly be 5 outta the last 5 instead.

 

[deleted-1891375]

My statement that they wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with it is incorrect. I really meant they wouldn't have that much to do with it. Sure they'll check in, be in the overall loop during the dev process, and have say in what happens there. However, the vein in which we were talking about it? That 4 outta the last 5 BW games have been following "The Formula"(as I will now dub it lol), and it's gettin' old? No. I don't believe that's EA. I believe that's BW. If that was EA's doing, then it'd prolly be 5 outta the last 5 instead.

"The Formula" is the least of the problems with any of the latest Bioware titles. Pandering and their development process have been the biggest issues and, from what we've heard from the staff, they've been doing more work in shorter time frames with less manpower with the intention of appealing to a demographic that differs from the core audience they'd gathered over their time developing games.

If that's not the result of EA's direction, I'll eat my hat. We already have Chris Toilet's interview mentioning a "higher paid" feeding him terrible ideas about how EDI and the Geth should be handled. It's plain to see what's going on over there.

Well considering they went right back to that formula in DAI, I think your hopes may have already been dashed my friend lol. DA2 didn't have a coherent story. Few things within the game actually interrelated to each other in the mq line. That was the main problem for me along with the recycled environments & retarded behavior by major players toward the end of the game. I don't believe dev time would've change those things very much.

Being rushed leads to bad writing. I can't remember the staffer who said it but in one of their videos a Bioware employee stated that the vast majority of the writer's work is done long before the rest of the development cycle.

We've heard the stories of high-pressure brainstorming sessions (some of the early ideas they've revealed for potential outcomes of the ME series are cringe-inducing) and we know what happens when deadlines are about to be reached and the writers have to lock themselves up and churn out content.

 

[powersp]

"The Formula" is the least of the problems with any of the latest Bioware titles. Pandering and their development process have been the biggest issues and, from what we've heard from the staff, they've been doing more work in shorter time frames with less manpower with the intention of appealing to a demographic that differs from the core audience they'd gathered over their time developing games.

If that's not the result of EA's direction, I'll eat my hat. We already have Chris Toilet's interview mentioning a "higher paid" feeding him terrible ideas about how EDI and the Geth should be handled. It's plain to see what's going on over there.

Yeah, and BW would say that because they are losing their core audience. Don't take everything BW says at face value. If you don't think BW people can be as full of shit as EA's(or anyone else for that matter) you're kidding yourself. Nobody, as in we fans, REALLY knows how much of a factor that is on an ongoing basis. Besides, what happened to DAI's crap story? The dev time/rushed out the door excuse doesn't fly for that one. It had more time than most BW games. So much so they added the Cullen & Solas romance storylines after the release was pushed back. They were tacked on late during that extra time. Sounds like they had plenty of extra time on their hands for this one. So score one for the "this is on BW" argument lol.

And no, The Formula IS a problem. I never said it's the biggest problem. That actually varies game to game. 4 of the last 5 games boil down the exactly the same theme, and it's not even all in the same series(which would still be bad btw). How is that NOT a real, tangible problem? And when ME4/DA4 feature this "hunter/gatherer" theme yet again? Still won't be an issue? Come on mang lol!

Being rushed leads to bad writing. I can't remember the staffer who said it but in one of their videos a Bioware employee stated that the vast majority of the writer's work is done long before the rest of the development cycle.

We've heard the stories of high-pressure brainstorming sessions (some of the early ideas they've revealed for potential outcomes of the ME series are cringe-inducing) and we know what happens when deadlines are about to be reached and the writers have to lock themselves up and churn out content.

Well considering DAI had way more time to cook than DA2, and the story still isn't very good(more coherent though I admit), I'ma have to go with a "not true" on this one too. All that extra time led to barely better writing, and that tells me that time is not the problem here. Time doesn't explain a lot of the writing issues the last few games.

Let's look at one example from DA2. Anders blowing up the Chantry. It's retarded, and it's got nothing to do with time. If you're Anders, and you really wanna start this shit, you're gonna bomb the Templar barracks, not a church. It's really stupid, and something I immediately thought of the first time I played through that part. Didn't take me months to come up with something better/that makes infinitely more sense. Right then & there. I bet you can find a post of me saying so on this very board if you looked. You know why he didn't blow up the Templar hq? Cause that would kill Meredith & then you wouldn't have your big, climactic boss fight at the end. It had nothing to do with being rushed. NO WAY someone didn't suggest exactly what I said in one of those brainstorming sessions you mentioned. The entire approach to DA2's story is just not how good storytelling in games is done. Story wise, the mq's are all over the place(no cohesion whatsoever). I just don't see that as a time issue. I see it as a bad idea issue.

 

[deleted-1891375]

Yeah, and BW would say that because they are losing their core audience. Don't take everything BW says at face value. If you don't think BW people can be as full of shit as EA's(or anyone else for that matter) you're kidding yourself. Nobody, as in we fans, REALLY knows how much of a factor that is on an ongoing basis. Besides, what happened to DAI's crap story? The dev time/rushed out the door excuse doesn't fly for that one. It had more time than most BW games. So much so they added the Cullen & Solas romance storylines after the release was pushed back. They were tacked on late during that extra time. Sounds like they had plenty of extra time on their hands for this one. So score one for the "this is on BW" argument lol.

And no, The Formula IS a problem. I never said it's the biggest problem. That actually varies game to game. 4 of the last 5 games boil down the exactly the same theme, and it's not even all in the same series(which would still be bad btw). How is that NOT a real, tangible problem? And when ME4/DA4 feature this "hunter/gatherer" theme yet again? Still won't be an issue? Come on mang lol!

We don't know but we can speculate, and my evidence outweighs your hypotheticals. Bioware only began to lose their core audience once they started publicly pursuing a new one after their purchase. "Awesome button", "We want the Call of Duty audience" and the "our tons of perfect scores mean more than your criticism" response by the previous owners all help to solidify that idea.

Unfortunately, I can't respond to comments about DA:I because I haven't played it.

Well considering DAI had way more time to cook than DA2, and the story still isn't very good(more coherent though I admit), I'ma have to go with a "not true" on this one too. All that extra time led to barely better writing, and that tells me that time is not the problem here. Time doesn't explain a lot of the writing issues the last few games.

Let's look at one example from DA2. Anders blowing up the Chantry. It's retarded, and it's got nothing to do with time. If you're Anders, and you really wanna start this shit, you're gonna bomb the Templar barracks, not a church. It's really stupid, and something I immediately thought of the first time I played through that part. Didn't take me months to come up with something better/that makes infinitely more sense. Right then & there. I bet you can find a post of me saying so on this very board if you looked. You know why he didn't blow up the Templar hq? Cause that would kill Meredith & then you wouldn't have your big, climactic boss fight at the end. It had nothing to do with being rushed. NO WAY someone didn't suggest exactly what I said in one of those brainstorming sessions you mentioned. The entire approach to DA2's story is just not how good storytelling in games is done. Story wise, the mq's are all over the place(no cohesion whatsoever). I just don't see that as a time issue. I see it as a bad idea issue.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bioware's staff isn't still part of the blame, here. You're right. There were some very questionable decisions made throughout that I have trouble finding excuses for, no matter how bad the development conditions were. You've named quite a few of them.

What I am trying to say is that the poor conditions mentioned earlier lead to poor outcomes. We've had title after title of nothing but greatness. Money and rights exchange hands, the studio is under new management and there's an astounding dip in quality and a noticeable change in goals. Employees are voicing complaints and their veteran staff members are dropping like flies. I can't look at that and not come to the conclusion that the new management is the number one cause.of it.

On the bright side, from what I've heard about Inq and what I saw with ME3, Bioware is beginning to hit their stride again and, even though I'm no longer their target audience, I see them producing many great action titles in their future.

 

[angiek76]

Hey guys! It's been way to long since I've posted on here... So what did you all think of Inquisition?

 

[powersp]

Meh. I used to like it more than DA2 after my first go. Now? Not so sure anymore. I'm a confused man, but you already knew that lol.

 

[CHawk15]

Do you think they sacrificed to much of the narrative to make it more open world, or do you simply dislike the direction the story is going ?

 

[Classicnerd]

Just got Dragon Age Origins for PS3 (as a gift)
-and downloaded some free stuff for it, like the stone prisoner.

It will be interesting to see how the PS3 version differs from 360 version as far as graphics are concerned.
(I used to have the game on 360 and played it quite a lot...)

 

[posnco]

...it's also why the quarians decided to attack the geth in the middle of the Reaper invasion in ME3...

Man do I remember those arguments.

This isn't the board for this, but I'll bring up the specific point of the ambivalence of time. We don't know when the Reapers attack in relation to the Quarians attacking. Hell, we don't know how long the events leading up to Admiral Hackett mentioning about the Quarians for the first time that they've gone to war. At the end of ME2, as long as you did Tali's LM the Quarians are the only government close towards viewing the Reapers as a threat, and for them the only way they can even do anything to help is to have a home world anyway (and getting Rannoch back is the sole debate of the society).

So, for what you see as the Quarians saying "FUCK THE REAPERS, WE NEED TO TAKE HEAVY CASUALTIES AGAINST THE GETH FIRST" is instead "Well, let's do this mission to take the home world......oh shit now that we're stuck in this battle the Reapers have returned god dammit" to me. That's far less "silly" and a more appropriate description of "desperate but not reckless" unlike the demon army, no?

I'm starting to think I'm just tired of the rut BW has been in for quite a while now. The overall theme of 4 outta the last 5 BW games has been gather up your allies/armies/specialists to go kill the bad guy at the end. It's getting old for me. DA2 is the only one of the last 5 BW games that didn't follow that formula, and I didn't care for that one very much as you know. Origins, DAI, and both of the last 2 ME games follow this formula. They're just becoming too formulaic & predictable now I think.

I can understand you getting tired of it but isn't it a selling point of BW games? To get engaged in some level of politics between people/nations towards solving some major crisis? They certainly don't need to make every game be about that but it would be getting in the way of what their fans (original demographic or their newer one) expect and/or like. I certainly would have hated Inquisition if it didn't have that role, my favorite part of the game was, essentially, becoming a player in the "game" at the Party.

People like to say that BW games are really just Relationship/Dating Sims, but really it's a Lobbyist Simulator. It's just what their games are about.

 

[angiek76]

I'm a confused man, but you already knew that lol.

The next time you argue with me, I'm using that against you. "you're a confused man"

 

[powersp]

Man do I remember those arguments.

This isn't the board for this, but I'll bring up the specific point of the ambivalence of time. We don't know when the Reapers attack in relation to the Quarians attacking. Hell, we don't know how long the events leading up to Admiral Hackett mentioning about the Quarians for the first time that they've gone to war. At the end of ME2, as long as you did Tali's LM the Quarians are the only government close towards viewing the Reapers as a threat, and for them the only way they can even do anything to help is to have a home world anyway (and getting Rannoch back is the sole debate of the society).

So, for what you see as the Quarians saying "FUCK THE REAPERS, WE NEED TO TAKE HEAVY CASUALTIES AGAINST THE GETH FIRST" is instead "Well, let's do this mission to take the home world......oh shit now that we're stuck in this battle the Reapers have returned god dammit" to me. That's far less "silly" and a more appropriate description of "desperate but not reckless" unlike the demon army, no?

Not true. We DO know the general time frame between the Reaper invasion and the Quarians attacking. When you start your mq's with the quarians(Dreadnaught mission) we are specifically told it was 17 days ago they started their attack. In a different convo with Hackett he says the quarians lost their homeworld a couple hundred years ago, and we just lost Earth WEEKS ago. How many weeks? They don't say a specific number, but when you consider that you're over halfway through the game by the time the quarians come into play, all the stuff you've done in the game by then, and the fact the game begins with the reaper invasion, it HAS to be at least 6-8 weeks. It seems to me that completing the genophage cure and distributing it via the Shroud would take a month by itself. Item #1253 on the "why ME3's story blows" list is there's no way Earth would still be kickin' at that point. Hell Thessia fell in like a day it seems lol. And how the FUCK can Anderson get a com signal out from Earth to talk to you? No way, and if he could the reapers would be all over his location. His first transmission would be his last.

I can understand you getting tired of it but isn't it a selling point of BW games? To get engaged in some level of politics between people/nations towards solving some major crisis? They certainly don't need to make every game be about that but it would be getting in the way of what their fans (original demographic or their newer one) expect and/or like. I certainly would have hated Inquisition if it didn't have that role, my favorite part of the game was, essentially, becoming a player in the "game" at the Party.

People like to say that BW games are really just Relationship/Dating Sims, but really it's a Lobbyist Simulator. It's just what their games are about.

Ok, fair enough, but whether or not that's good biz and sells games is irrelevant to my personal opinion of the game(in fact the last 5 BW games), and why FOR ME Bioware has lost their storytelling mojo. I'm not the only one that's been down on their storytelling the last few games.

 

[deleted-1891375]

I'm still surprised that you played Inquisition. You've been railing BW's writing since ME2.

 

[powersp]

I'm still surprised that you played Inquisition. You've been railing BW's writing since ME2.

LMFAO...all too true my man. All too true. Although I actually have few problems with ME2's writing specifically, but after that it's been a shitfest imo. Of course everyone ELSE rags on ME2's writing, and I say ME3's is far worse as you know. I mean just compare the writing for ME2's SM vs. the final ME3 mission. Scratch that, it's not even comparable lol. Well the rest of those two games follow in suit with that imo. And I KNOW you aren't that keen on their writing/storytelling since then either. Have you still only played ME3 once because of the "terrible narrative", as you put it? I just keep hoping they'll get that mojo back somehow. Keep giving them another chance. Back in the Origins days, BW was my fav dev after all. KOTOR, Jade Empire, Origins, ME1...oh my lol! Still, I enjoyed combat and a few other things in ME3/DAI.

 

[CHawk15]

I think Inquistion took steps in the right direction overall, but the narrative suffered greatly for it this go around. Hopefully Andromeda will be better.

 

[powersp]

Yeah that Andromeda trailer was sweet, but in my xp that doesn't mean a whole lot. Still a hopeful though somehow in spite of their more recent track record lol.

 

[CHawk15]

I look at it as BW learning how to do open world, my expectation is that it'll be a few steps forward from Inquisiton, but there still will be issues.

 

[powersp]

That's what I've been telling myself too. I guess we'll see how true that is.

 

[deleted-1891375]

LMFAO...all too true my man. All too true. Although I actually have few problems with ME2's writing specifically, but after that it's been a shitfest imo. Of course everyone ELSE rags on ME2's writing, and I say ME3's is far worse as you know. I mean just compare the writing for ME2's SM vs. the final ME3 mission. Scratch that, it's not even comparable lol. Well the rest of those two games follow in suit with that imo. And I KNOW you aren't that keen on their writing/storytelling since then either. Have you still only played ME3 once because of the "terrible narrative", as you put it? I just keep hoping they'll get that mojo back somehow. Keep giving them another chance. Back in the Origins days, BW was my fav dev after all. KOTOR, Jade Empire, Origins, ME1...oh my lol! Still, I enjoyed combat and a few other things in ME3/DAI.

I said I was done with EA and all of their divisions after ME3 and I still feel that way.

 

[posnco]

Man do I remember those arguments.

This isn't the board for this, but I'll bring up the specific point of the ambivalence of time. We don't know when the Reapers attack in relation to the Quarians attacking. Hell, we don't know how long the events leading up to Admiral Hackett mentioning about the Quarians for the first time that they've gone to war. At the end of ME2, as long as you did Tali's LM the Quarians are the only government close towards viewing the Reapers as a threat, and for them the only way they can even do anything to help is to have a home world anyway (and getting Rannoch back is the sole debate of the society).

So, for what you see as the Quarians saying "FUCK THE REAPERS, WE NEED TO TAKE HEAVY CASUALTIES AGAINST THE GETH FIRST" is instead "Well, let's do this mission to take the home world......oh shit now that we're stuck in this battle the Reapers have returned god dammit" to me. That's far less "silly" and a more appropriate description of "desperate but not reckless" unlike the demon army, no?

Not true. We DO know the general time frame between the Reaper invasion and the Quarians attacking. When you start your mq's with the quarians(Dreadnaught mission) we are specifically told it was 17 days ago they started their attack. In a different convo with Hackett he says the quarians lost their homeworld a couple hundred years ago, and we just lost Earth WEEKS ago. How many weeks? They don't say a specific number, but when you consider that you're over halfway through the game by the time the quarians come into play, all the stuff you've done in the game by then, and the fact the game begins with the reaper invasion, it HAS to be at least 6-8 weeks. It seems to me that completing the genophage cure and distributing it via the Shroud would take a month by itself.

That's still an assumption. A Logical assumption I should admit, as I think essentially the plot of ME3 should take 3 months overall to occur but "weeks" still can equal 2. If one does nothing but MQ missions you could plot out exact moments of a 2 week period that you'd go from getting your belly patted by Admiral Anderson to crashing skycars at the Citadel and shooting Udina. Add in 3 SQs and I could still see it working, though pretty frenzied (the total SQs possible in this time, not including scanning planets, are 5, 6 with From Ashes).

Of course, add in any of the other DLCs and all logic is lost, but none of the DLC fit any timeline placement well anyway.

Item #1253 on the "why ME3's story blows" list is there's no way Earth would still be kickin' at that point. Hell Thessia fell in like a day it seems lol. And how the FUCK can Anderson get a com signal out from Earth to talk to you? No way, and if he could the reapers would be all over his location. His first transmission would be his last.

No, yeah. ME3 threw out a ton of the science-fiction rules they had already established for "cool" or "dramatic" factor. Even worse, though, was the attempt to try to catch up players who only entered the game by the 3rd installment. You talk to Anderson so much, despite how QEC communication seemed to be too "convenient", because they want to build up your relationship to him for new players AND (in my opinion) for the old players as even people like me didn't have THAT much of a connection to Anderson to exactly care for him until ME3. All that so him dying at the end could feel bigger.

BTW, if your EMS is low, what does it mean that Anderson dies? Do you not get to speak with him? Does he not get to say he's proud of you before dying anyway?

Item #1254 on why ME3's mechanics were flawed: Introducing game mechanics that have no purpose going forward. Remember how useful it was on Mars for the game to tell you that you can shoot through some glass features? Remember how useful the turret was? Over-cover grabs seemed like they had no purpose besides MP because any time a non-Vanguard rushed in the enemies would retreat, sometimes just to stand out of cover. Man, that Heavy Weapon they gave me was really useful....when it took me 7 minutes to find and by that point I don't have many enemies left since my normal armament is strong enough to take down any group.

I said I was done with EA and all of their divisions after ME3 and I still feel that way.

I actually thought this would be a difficult thing to do going forward, but besides Bioware things (I'm not as annoyed as you two are, plus besides DA:I I only play ME) and Star Wars Battlefront it's actually been easy to avoid EA games these days. I didn't even make a stand.

 

[Astus_01]

I really enjoyed DAI. Heck, I was a good way through a third consecutive playthrough before I felt any burn out. I feel like they really hit their stride with it.

I've pretty much gotten over my issues with ME3 too. It could have and should have been a lot better but I can enjoy it without lamenting the fact now.

 

[Classicnerd]

Yo! I got DA Inquisition yesterday for 360 and I'm lovin it!
-it looks gorgeous and plays smootly, and best of all it's very much like DA Origins.

Man, I thought 360 version would suck and be hugely downgraded and so on, which is why I did not buy it before this.

But luckily I did as it is, when patched, pretty darn awesome. Yeah. No need to upgrade to XboxOne to enjoy this one.

Okay, I'm only about 6 hours to the game, so have just scratched the surface, but this far it has been excellent. Only moan is the main plot of amnesia and the rifts, which is really rather dull. I mean are those rifts just copies of Oblivion Gates or what? And is amnesia like so cliche plot device?

But hey, I never bother about main plots in RPGs. I play them to explore and adventure.