Out of Universe Wording[]
Hey guys!
Shouldn't the opening sentence for the summary be changed, as it says "When the movie begins", as this is strictly an example of out of universe wording?
Thanks, JW Talk 08:10, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't matter one way or another. The entire article is going to undergo a major writing overhaul soon, so everything is going to be rewritten from the ground up. Arrancar109 (Talk) 08:25, March 21, 2011 (UTC)
Acknowledged as Canon?[]
So we all know how the Valley of Screams was made canon awhile ago in the manga, but I just noticed something interesting: On page 4 of Chapter 627, Ichigo tells Riruka that he's entered the Valley of Screams before. Seeing as how the Valley of Screams hadn't even appeared in the manga until a few chapters prior, I can only really assume that he is referring to the events of Memories of Nobody. Now before you go on saying that this can't be due to the fact that he was supposed to have forgotten about the whole thing, Rukia only said he would forget about Senna, she said nothing regarding his memories of the events surrounding the incident. This seems as an acknowledgement of the movie being canon to me. –Nahald (talk) 21:16, October 16, 2016 (UTC)
- Oh boy. I recall this being brought up back when that chapter and chapter 625 came out, and while I wasn't keen on getting into then under the assumption that it might be elaborated on in later chapters, now that the series is over I suppose we may as well resolve it. While I personally have no problem with acknowledging Memories of Nobody as being canonical and can't think of any timeline issues that would arise from such a status (unlike with the other three movies), there's something that needs to be kept in mind: in this final arc, Kubo has pulled in similar seemingly non-canonical concepts and made them canon without actually making the work they came from canonical. For example, Shunsui's Zanpakutō spirits ended up appearing identical to their manifestations in the Zanpakutō Unknown Tales filler arc; however, that does not make the arc itself canonical, as its placement conflicts with actual manga events occurring at the time and some of its other decisions (such as giving Tenken fire-based powers or drastically changing Zabimaru's appearance) make it very iffy. There's also the matter of Izuru, who reappeared 160 chapters after his wounding and disappearance with a new body matching the one he had in the light novel contained in Bleach 13th Blades detailing his and Shaz Domino's fate - despite this clear inspiration, we cannot say the light novel is canonical based on that alone (though that may change if Kubo's note about reading said novel to learn what happened to Izuru ever comes back to prominence and discussion). In this case, we know 3 things regarding the Valleys of Screams: they exist in the manga, Ichigo has been to one before, and they are identical to the Valley of Screams that appeared in the movie. However, there are some key differences regarding the existence of the Valleys of Screams between the movie and the manga that are detailed here, and as I said before, Kubo introducing certain formerly non-canonical concepts in the manga does not automatically make everything else surrounding those concepts canonical. Though I'd be perfectly fine with having the best Bleach movie be canon, unless Kubo outright says that it is canonical, we cannot list it as such on the wiki because that would be a violation of the speculation policy. Hope that helps.--Xilinoc (talk) 22:18, October 16, 2016 (UTC)
- I actually disagree that no other movie could be placed into the timeline: Hell Verse could easily take place in the anime continuity during the time when Ichigo's powers were still present, just significantly weaker than before. I can't recall there being any continuity issues with the other two movies that couldn't place them between between when the Arrancar first appear and when Orihime gets captured, that is unless Ichigo demonstrates control over his Visored powers at some point. Though it's been so long since I've seen either of those two movies, and I wouldn't particularly care to see them again because I think the first and fourth movies are the superior ones. –Nahald (talk)
- The issues with the other movies lie with the appearance of Ichigo's mask, of all things - because it changes over the course of the series to reflect Ichigo's development power- and character-wise, what form it takes on places a given movie/filler arc at a particular point in time of the manga. Those points, however, conflict with the events of all those movies. Take Hell Verse, for instance; Ichigo's mask is in its final form with the two vertical bending stripes across the eyes, and his full Hollow form matches the one he took when fighting Ulquiorra (which is a plot point of the movie itself) - but where do you place this on the timeline of the manga? He only gained that mask after going full berserk Hollow mode against Ulquiorra, and pretty much immediately after that he went to the Fake Karakura Town, where most of the Gotei 13's top combatants were while the rest were in Hueco Mundo, and then after all that happened in the span of about a day he lost his Shinigami powers...you see the issue here, the movie's events can't really fit in the manga's timeline. Similar issues exist for movies 2 and 3.--Xilinoc (talk) 05:31, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
- That's only in the manga continuity though, in the anime continuity it took him a few weeks for his powers to disappear completely. –Nahald (talk) 00:08, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, but the manga continuity is what we always put first. The anime changed the aftermath of the Final Getsuga Tenshō so it could justify a crappy filler arc with Ichigo still present and doing stuff. What you're asking is if we can classify the events of Memories of Nobody as canon because the manga referenced some stuff from it, so the anime's altered timeline has no place here or anywhere on the wiki except for filler-specific sections.--Xilinoc (talk) 04:02, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
- That's only in the manga continuity though, in the anime continuity it took him a few weeks for his powers to disappear completely. –Nahald (talk) 00:08, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
- The issues with the other movies lie with the appearance of Ichigo's mask, of all things - because it changes over the course of the series to reflect Ichigo's development power- and character-wise, what form it takes on places a given movie/filler arc at a particular point in time of the manga. Those points, however, conflict with the events of all those movies. Take Hell Verse, for instance; Ichigo's mask is in its final form with the two vertical bending stripes across the eyes, and his full Hollow form matches the one he took when fighting Ulquiorra (which is a plot point of the movie itself) - but where do you place this on the timeline of the manga? He only gained that mask after going full berserk Hollow mode against Ulquiorra, and pretty much immediately after that he went to the Fake Karakura Town, where most of the Gotei 13's top combatants were while the rest were in Hueco Mundo, and then after all that happened in the span of about a day he lost his Shinigami powers...you see the issue here, the movie's events can't really fit in the manga's timeline. Similar issues exist for movies 2 and 3.--Xilinoc (talk) 05:31, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
- I actually disagree that no other movie could be placed into the timeline: Hell Verse could easily take place in the anime continuity during the time when Ichigo's powers were still present, just significantly weaker than before. I can't recall there being any continuity issues with the other two movies that couldn't place them between between when the Arrancar first appear and when Orihime gets captured, that is unless Ichigo demonstrates control over his Visored powers at some point. Though it's been so long since I've seen either of those two movies, and I wouldn't particularly care to see them again because I think the first and fourth movies are the superior ones. –Nahald (talk)