woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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Yeah, ABS on default adds a lot of understeer and also makes the brakes much weaker. I use ABS on weak for that reason. I'd use ABS off if I could reliably brake better because the cars handle way better without ABS.
I remember preferring to drive without ABS in GT5, I found it to be faster most of the time, then in GT6 it was easily faster with it. Looks like I'll have to practice without it in Sport.

I tried doing the online time trial qualifying for Gr.4 Bathurst, with ~1/2 hour practice I managed to get ~5sec off the top 10 times, still, that's better than 10sec at la Sarthe One Make in that special panda 86. But alas, I can't race.

//delayed response
 

GTporsche

Another State of Mind
Sep 2, 2006
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Yeah, ABS on default adds a lot of understeer and also makes the brakes much weaker. I use ABS on weak for that reason. I'd use ABS off if I could reliably brake better because the cars handle way better without ABS.
I remember preferring to drive without ABS in GT5, I found it to be faster most of the time, then in GT6 it was easily faster with it. Looks like I'll have to practice without it in Sport.

I tried doing the online time trial qualifying for Gr.4 Bathurst, with ~1/2 hour practice I managed to get ~5sec off the top 10 times, still, that's better than 10sec at la Sarthe One Make in that special panda 86. But alas, I can't race.

//delayed response
Even if you could race, you'd get half empty rooms because of PD splitting up regions.
 

ZaXoFF7

No Longer a Noob
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Do you guys know if they nerfed the AI in that 1-hour endurance mission? Mission 6-8? I just finished it, going lean right at the end of the first stretch to get an extra lap before pitting, doing nothing special during the section stretch, and then going with Medium tires at the end since the car in second did. Ended up about 17 seconds ahead at the end.

Jumped on to YouTube to see how a few other people fared, and I just found a ton of people who either make it by less then a second, or don't even get first. I really don't think I'm that good, particularly these days (and with a broken controller). So do you think they changed something to make it easier? If I recall that mission was in the demo too, and I had to do it twice because I failed it the first time, and only just made it the second time.
 

woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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That was the toughest damn mission for me, after a couple of tries getting like 8th, then 10th, I left it to last to gold, then eventually won by about 5 sec, including a few 2nd place tries. I was sure that when the game was released you get collision and off-course fails for missions, but I didn't get that when I got back into it in Oct.

On the other end of success, today I managed to win a clean Premium Sport Cars race on Blue Moon Bay in an N300 996 911 GT3, earning 375,000Cr and 8,000xp in like 10min.

//took a lot of tries to figure out a good driving style and setup though, still the setup could be better
 

ZaXoFF7

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I feel like I remember it having collision and cutting penalties in that mission in the demo, but either they removed them, or I didn't run into them. Glad that they haven't gone overboard with the endurance stuff though. It seems like most of it isn't any longer than like an hour and thirty minutes. I liked the longer races when I was a kid, but not only did they rarely pay out enough to warrant the time, I just don't have that kind of time anymore, lol.

I've still yet to do an online race. I'm so paranoid that I'll make a mistake and screw someone elses race up.
 

woody938

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Apr 23, 2007
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I'm disappointed there's no Gr.3 Nordschleife enduro though.

I'm a bit paranoid about that myself, at least I don't have to worry about it with the absence of PS+ an' all.
 

ZaXoFF7

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Oh really? I thought that's what you meant with the race you were referencing doing on Blue Moon Bay. So that was an Arcade race or something? If you earned that much that easy, well... how?
 

woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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GT League, Professional League, Premium Sports Lounge, Blue Moon Bay Speedway. Standard prize money is 100,000Cr for a win, the game ups it if you choose a car in a lower class than specified, and further boosts it by 50% if you had a clean race. XP for levelling up is also boosted by as much. The Premium Sports Lounge has a car class limit of N1000, I managed to win it in an N300 car. Specifically the Porsche 911 GT3 (996), reduced weight to as low as possible including upgrades and you also need to upgrade the power section to get the car down to N300, get the most power you can while staying in that class. I brake before I start turning, and then feather the gas so the car slows down during the turn to the right speed for the turn. You'll soon find out what happens if you drive the car the "usual" way.

Here's the setup I used for that first win, top speed was set to 290kph, but like I said, I think it could be better.

CRIJT3v.jpg


That said, making the 991 911 GT3 RS an N400 car is a much easier way to go about it, but with a little less prize money & XP, about 330,000Cr with a clean race iirc. I prefer the N300 route 'cos I enjoy the uncertainty of if I might win or not.

//maybe he should post a "fast money and XP" thread
 
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GTporsche

Another State of Mind
Sep 2, 2006
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KTM X-Bow at N300 is best for that race.

And the other races in the Premium Sports Lounge can be won with N200 cars.
 
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woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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Adding liveries to my collection seems to be buggy, I've been pressing the add button on new liveries most days as they come but checking my collection I haven't got any new ones between 28 Dec and 2 days ago.

//is persistently trying to get one from 11 Jan but it won't show up
 
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woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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It seems there might be an upper limit of liveries or space for each user on the server, I counted 244 rows of 4 (976) liveries, maybe it's 1000, guess I'll go delete a bunch I won't use.
 

woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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The KTM has rebel rear wheels, it may be 1sec faster than the 996 GT3 but it's a lot more difficult to have a clean win.

//can't seem to completely tune out on the unstability
 

GTporsche

Another State of Mind
Sep 2, 2006
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Yeah, years before that video, or the video it was referencing was created.
 

GTporsche

Another State of Mind
Sep 2, 2006
51,990
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Can't even directly search back far enough to find the origin. Got back to 2003, but as it's a GT3 prize car, there's probably somethings much sooner than 03.
 

woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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iirc, Tiger was really into it and might've somehow started in that story thread where B-spec Bob's story was told or something along those lines.

//delayed response
 

woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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iirc, Tiger was really into it and might've somehow started in that story thread where B-spec Bob's story was told or something along those lines.

//delayed response
 

woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
Apr 23, 2007
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I'm a week late but I'm just starting to get hyped for GT7 with the inclusion of the Carrera GT and GT4-esque main menu. The MMORPG style support characters is a nice touch too.
 

ZaXoFF7

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Really interested in what modes they'll offer. I suspect given GT Sport's relative resolution/effects work/performance, that we can expect a 4K, 120fps mode, and then a 1440p, 60fps mode with ray tracing enabled.

Also... that ray tracing...
 

ZaXoFF7

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A fancy way to do lighting, reflections, shadows, etc. It's the way that CG movies do that stuff so accurately. Effectively invisible rays are cast to simulate light bounce in a way that's physically accurate to real life. The techniques we use for such things currently are either inefficient, inaccurate, or are limited in some ways. For example, cube map reflections can't reflect dynamic objects like characters. Render to texture reflections are incredibly computationally expensive. And screen space reflections are neither but can only reflect objects on screen and that aren't being occluded from the camera view by another object (if an object passes between the reflective surface and the camera, or if the camera tilts to the point that an object isn't on screen anymore, the edges of the screen space reflection will disappear). Ray traced reflections are also computationally expensive, but can transfer object colors by simulating bounced light, can reflect objects that are off screen, can reflect dynamic objects, don't disappear at oblique angles like screen space reflections do, and can match the roughness of a surface accurately (so brushed metal will reflect differently than a window, which will reflect differently from a mirror, etc.). You can even get accurate reflections in incredibly tiny objects, like eyes, or a bolt, or a metal piece on a shift knob, etc. And again, ray tracing can do much more than reflections, including volumetric lighting, accurate global illumination, ambient occlusion, soft and increasingly diffuse shadows, etc. Nvidia has had dedicated ray tracing hardware in their RTX graphics cards on PC since the end of 2018, and the Series X/PS5 also include similar hardware level ray tracing capabilities. And now that it's going to be a feature in such mass market machines, we can safely expect the technology to get vastly more optimized over the next few years, so that it should become less computationally expensive.

In the GT7 trailer you can see clear examples of ray traced reflections on the sides of the trailer as they're moving up (at about 30 seconds into the trailer), on the floor of the garage as the car is heading in (at about 36 seconds... they put the driver in front of the reflection to prove that it wasn't screen space by the way... also, notice how reflective his helmet is), in the mirrors/windows, chromed pieces on cars, even the light from the gauge cluster reflecting off of the metal trim of the gauges themselves (34 seconds in)... and most importantly, you can see accurate reflections of the environment, other cars, and self reflections of your own car in your paint. Gran Turismo Sport by contrast used cube map reflections on your car. But that cube map was actually repeated on every car in the race, rather than them each getting their own reflections. You can see this by driving behind someone while passing under a banner or something like that; you'll be able to see the same banner reflect in the car(s) ahead of you when you pass under it, lol. Also, depending on the track, some reflections are really low resolution and look chunky, or update at half rate (so 30fps instead of 60fps).

We don't know if they're doing self shadowing, ambient occlusion, diffuse/soft shadows, or anything else with ray tracing yet. I wouldn't expect it, because again, it's still really computationally expensive at this point. Maybe color transfer from bounce lighting at best, and probably only a couple of bounces. But considering the performance of GT Sport is so high, and other than the lighting and ray tracing GT7 looks to largely be the same as GT Sport graphically, I think they're shooting for a high res, high fps mode, and a lower res, standard fps mode with ray tracing enabled. It's funny, because the car models in the shop section generally are the most impressive. But because the one in the trailer is reflecting nothing but a grey void, it actually comes off as one of the least impressive in the trailer.

Wall of text, but hopefully it was informative without being confusing.
 

-stubzi-

Prolific poster
Sep 10, 2008
42,153
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A fancy way to do lighting, reflections, shadows, etc. It's the way that CG movies do that stuff so accurately. Effectively invisible rays are cast to simulate light bounce in a way that's physically accurate to real life. The techniques we use for such things currently are either inefficient, inaccurate, or are limited in some ways. For example, cube map reflections can't reflect dynamic objects like characters. Render to texture reflections are incredibly computationally expensive. And screen space reflections are neither but can only reflect objects on screen and that aren't being occluded from the camera view by another object (if an object passes between the reflective surface and the camera, or if the camera tilts to the point that an object isn't on screen anymore, the edges of the screen space reflection will disappear). Ray traced reflections are also computationally expensive, but can transfer object colors by simulating bounced light, can reflect objects that are off screen, can reflect dynamic objects, don't disappear at oblique angles like screen space reflections do, and can match the roughness of a surface accurately (so brushed metal will reflect differently than a window, which will reflect differently from a mirror, etc.). You can even get accurate reflections in incredibly tiny objects, like eyes, or a bolt, or a metal piece on a shift knob, etc. And again, ray tracing can do much more than reflections, including volumetric lighting, accurate global illumination, ambient occlusion, soft and increasingly diffuse shadows, etc. Nvidia has had dedicated ray tracing hardware in their RTX graphics cards on PC since the end of 2018, and the Series X/PS5 also include similar hardware level ray tracing capabilities. And now that it's going to be a feature in such mass market machines, we can safely expect the technology to get vastly more optimized over the next few years, so that it should become less computationally expensive.

In the GT7 trailer you can see clear examples of ray traced reflections on the sides of the trailer as they're moving up (at about 30 seconds into the trailer), on the floor of the garage as the car is heading in (at about 36 seconds... they put the driver in front of the reflection to prove that it wasn't screen space by the way... also, notice how reflective his helmet is), in the mirrors/windows, chromed pieces on cars, even the light from the gauge cluster reflecting off of the metal trim of the gauges themselves (34 seconds in)... and most importantly, you can see accurate reflections of the environment, other cars, and self reflections of your own car in your paint. Gran Turismo Sport by contrast used cube map reflections on your car. But that cube map was actually repeated on every car in the race, rather than them each getting their own reflections. You can see this by driving behind someone while passing under a banner or something like that; you'll be able to see the same banner reflect in the car(s) ahead of you when you pass under it, lol. Also, depending on the track, some reflections are really low resolution and look chunky, or update at half rate (so 30fps instead of 60fps).

We don't know if they're doing self shadowing, ambient occlusion, diffuse/soft shadows, or anything else with ray tracing yet. I wouldn't expect it, because again, it's still really computationally expensive at this point. Maybe color transfer from bounce lighting at best, and probably only a couple of bounces. But considering the performance of GT Sport is so high, and other than the lighting and ray tracing GT7 looks to largely be the same as GT Sport graphically, I think they're shooting for a high res, high fps mode, and a lower res, standard fps mode with ray tracing enabled. It's funny, because the car models in the shop section generally are the most impressive. But because the one in the trailer is reflecting nothing but a grey void, it actually comes off as one of the least impressive in the trailer.

Wall of text, but hopefully it was informative without being confusing.

Very informative post, thank you.

Ray Tracing looks amazing but the technology isn't quite there yet. FPS well and truely seems to tank when Ray Tracing is enabled.
 

ZaXoFF7

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In certain games it might. It all depends on what types of things they choose to use ray tracing for (or if studios go with an alternative like Unreal 5's Lumen). Limiting it to only reflections for example is still taxing, but not insanely so. They can also have any effects they use render at half resolution, update at half rate, limit it to only certain objects/types of objects (you can see examples of this in the Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart demo), if they use it in conjunction with screen space effects, and the types of surfaces the ray tracing is being used on. Beyond that, since it's hardware ray tracing, it utilizes its own dedicated hardware for the effect. That means it still has a minor impact on CPU/GPU cycles, but as long as the ray tracing hardware itself doesn't get so bogged down that it becomes a bottleneck (which is what frequently happened early on with Nvidia's RTX GPUs), you can still get really stable performance with RT on.

Also, it's worth noting just how powerful dynamic image features can be for clawing back a lot of performance. Dynamic Resolution, Deep Learning Super Sampling (in particular DLSS 2.0), checkerboard rendering, and a lot of other tools can allow for a game to look much higher resolution, while still technically running natively at a much lower one. I'd say in most games that aren't lighter loads, RT will struggle to provide much value for a few years to come. But in something like GT in particular, it's already light enough and well optimized enough that I think they'll be able to do some really impressive work with it.
 

-stubzi-

Prolific poster
Sep 10, 2008
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In certain games it might. It all depends on what types of things they choose to use ray tracing for (or if studios go with an alternative like Unreal 5's Lumen). Limiting it to only reflections for example is still taxing, but not insanely so. They can also have any effects they use render at half resolution, update at half rate, limit it to only certain objects/types of objects (you can see examples of this in the Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart demo), if they use it in conjunction with screen space effects, and the types of surfaces the ray tracing is being used on. Beyond that, since it's hardware ray tracing, it utilizes its own dedicated hardware for the effect. That means it still has a minor impact on CPU/GPU cycles, but as long as the ray tracing hardware itself doesn't get so bogged down that it becomes a bottleneck (which is what frequently happened early on with Nvidia's RTX GPUs), you can still get really stable performance with RT on.

Also, it's worth noting just how powerful dynamic image features can be for clawing back a lot of performance. Dynamic Resolution, Deep Learning Super Sampling (in particular DLSS 2.0), checkerboard rendering, and a lot of other tools can allow for a game to look much higher resolution, while still technically running natively at a much lower one. I'd say in most games that aren't lighter loads, RT will struggle to provide much value for a few years to come. But in something like GT in particular, it's already light enough and well optimized enough that I think they'll be able to do some really impressive work with it.

Awesome, I mainly game on PC and have an RTX card I don't normally turn Ray Tracing on though. I think next gen consoles will popularise it a lot more and we will see it utilised better though.

I am hyped for next gen consoles, haven't played on a console in a good while as there hasn't been much I fancy..

GT7 looks amazing (I like how it reminds me of GT4) and I adore Ratchet and Clank games, so will probably buy a PS5 at or near launch.
 

woody938

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Apr 23, 2007
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Sounds pretty kool, esp. for photo mode. Thank you!

//noted some of those limitations in GT Sport, funny how the PS4 is the only one without a traditional GT game
 

ZaXoFF7

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Control is probably the most impressive game I've seen with RT on right now. It's more subtle, but it has a large suite of effects. And with DLSS 2.0 on, you can get some insane res boosts out of normal 1080p if you're using a 4K display, while getting so much performance back (when compared to RT at native 4K) that if I recall you can mostly lock the game to 60fps.

I'm excited for GT7 as well, but kind of... tepidly in a sense. I'm glad a lot of the campaign features are seeing a return. But at the same time, I'm already so tired of sims just giving us massive lists of events, that I'm honestly going to be disappointed if they don't do something new with it. And realistically? I don't expect them to do anything new with it, lol.
 

woody938

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I'm fine with that, up to 720 is where I can notice the difference pretty well, going to 1080 the difference for me is barely there, haven't used 4K to know about that. With GT Sport even 60fps is plenty as I notice a delay in controller input just with that, esp. steering but I guess a steering wheel might solve that.

//would use 720 mode on his computer if 1080 mode wasn't a lot more compatible with everything
 

ZaXoFF7

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Yeah, then that's why. Doubling both axis of a resolution means 4x the pixels. But halving the size of both axis of a display means 4x the pixel density, which is the same thing in terms of sharpness. So your 20" display even just at 720p is the same pixel density of a 40" display at 1440p.

And your 32" tv has the same pixel density as a 64" 4K display.

Obviously, it's not a one-to-one conversion, in the sense that higher resolutions will still show less aliasing, and can resolve greater distant detail, which you don't get from smaller displays. But a smaller display at the same resolution will still look sharper than a larger one, meaning the benefits of higher resolution are diminished. If your 20" display was 4K, I doubt even the most discerning resolution snobs would be able to tell the difference past like 1800p.
 

ZaXoFF7

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In case you ever wondered by the way, I don't think the PS4 controller has pressure sensitive face buttons like the PS3 and PS2, lol. My R2 button has been slowly dying for a while now. It still works in a binary fashion. But its pressure sensitivity maxes out at 50% now, meaning I can't go beyond half throttle.

I couldn't get used to using the Right Stick as the gas, so I tried the third default option of the X button. It linearly climbs from 0-100% throttle in about a second and a half, with no way to hold steady at anything other than full throttle or no throttle, outside of repeatedly getting on and letting off of the button, lol.
 

woody938

The Irresponsible Captain Typo
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Sounds about the same as the L-joystick steering input, makes me wonder if the motion sensor option is different.

For screens I'm limited by my sight, short sighted limits acuity and tunnel vision means large screens are not practical for me.
 

ZaXoFF7

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Not sure what you mean about the Left Stick. It's still analog. I suppose that means I didn't explain it properly.

What I mean is that the throttle can't be held steady with the face buttons, unlike previous Gran Turismo games. When you press the button -no matter how hard you're pressing- the throttle percentage increases until it's 100%. You can't hold it steady, because the game no longer understands how hard you're pressing it. To the game, you're either pressing the button, or you're not.

The Left Stick doesn't provide the best analog nuance, but it still is analog. So if I hold the stick steady halfway between the center and the edge, my steering angle will also hold steady, rather than continuing to full lock.

It's awful in the wet. Did the Group 3 wet race (Race 4) earlier, and I legit had to exit the hairpin thing after the tunnel straight in 4th gear to prevent the car from just spinning.
 
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woody938

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I think the delay in the left joystick I feel might have something to do with the visual respond of the driver turning in. It's quite notable on the slower corner of the Blue Moon Bay oval, turning in earlier than you think is faster (even if the goal is to hold the line) and allows you to use the banking better to continue slowing the car down rather than doing all of the slowing down right up to entry.