Talk: Yamato

Aspects of this article have been involved in high-traffic editing disputes which have been discussed on this talk page. Based on user consensus paired with guidance from FANDOM staff, our position is that Yamato is to be identified as male in our articles. Our reasons for doing so as well as acknowledgements of conflicting information are concisely explained here. This ruling is subject to being revisited and changed based on the release of new information from official sources. This information will need to have been released following the date of the last discussion's conclusion (August 2023). Information that has come before has likely already been discussed. Posts about this topic that lack new information will be removed. We recognize that newer users may not realize our stance initially and will do our best to inform anyone who may be confused. However, those who should know full well our policy and go against it anyway will receive consequences up to and including being banned from editing.

New Information (Chapter 1052)

The official release of chapter 1052 has occurred, so I figure I might as well bring up the new information from it as the top of this talk page points out: "This ruling is subject to being revisited and changed based on the release of new information from official sources."

In chapter 1052, Yamato points out that there is no mixed-bathing option in the castle so she doesn't bathe with the other women and instead bathes with all of the male characters. It is worth noting that Kiku, who identifies as female, chooses to bathe with the other women. This seems like more significant evidence (beyond being referred to as Kaidou's son) that Yamato identifies as male. Even if the actual reasoning for why Yamato identifies as male is unique, there is strong evidence presented here for us to accept that Yamato should be treated as male and perhaps the wiki page should be updated to reflect this if others agree. Damage3245 (talk) 15:08, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again... AcXAcX (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, lord, not again... Might I point out that it was also stated that in the past Kiku bathed with the men as well? So, yeah, that doesn't really prove anything. Timjer (talk) 15:14, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

It should go without saying but please stay on-topic and comments complaining about the topic are not necessary here. This is a wiki and discussing new information that comes up as the chapters are released is part of the wiki's business. Regarding Kiku bathing with men in the past, Oda has stated that she's been very social from a young age and Kiku says in this chapter that she only bathed with Oden and the others because she was familiar with them, and doesn't choose to bathe with a group of men willingly. Also, Yamato states that there is no mixed-bathing in the castle. If she identified as female and bathed with all the male Straw Hats, that would make it mixed-bathing. Evidently Yamato is considering themselves to be male here. Damage3245 (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Thing is, Damage, please understand that most if not all of the entire fandom is utterly TIRED of the Yamato gender discussion. People tend not to like it anymore when others bring it up to change it to how they want it to be. And you seem to be very obsessed with proving yourself right.
Look, I admit that the whole bathing stuff muddles it a bit. But I still don't consider it absolute proof yet. If you ask me, once Yamato joins the crew and finally drops the "I'm Oden" shtick, then we'll see how Yamato still identifies herself. If Yamato outright comes out and declares himself male, then I'll accept it. But for now there is still not enough proof. Timjer (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, and about Kiku being more comfortable around Oden becaus she's familiar with them? Guess what, who is Yamato most familiar with amongst the bathers? That's right, Luffy and Momo. So, yeah, your argument doesn't really work. Timjer (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Please keep your personal assumptions out of this. I am not "very obsessed with proving myself right". If this chapter had come out and shown Yamato choosing to bathe with the female characters instead of the other male characters then I would have taken it as supporting evidence that Yamato identifies as female. I don't have a set agenda that I am setting out to prove; I am bringing new evidence to the table because somebody has to. If you're tired of the discussion and don't want a part of it then you can just stay out of the discussion. Also additional headcanon like "Yamato will join the crew and drop the Oden shtick" is inappropriate here. I don't think you could get a more outright declaration than Yamato in an earlier chapter saying "I became a man too" and Yamato in this chapter intentionally bathing with other male characters instead of female characters. Damage3245 (talk) 15:34, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

"I would have taken it as supporting evidence that Yamato identifies as female" Somehow I doubt that, but that's not the point here, so please just adress my actual argument rather than use ad hominems and saying I should stay out of it. Now the argument "I became a man too" doesn't really work. Yamato DIDN'T "become a man". Biologically, Yamato is still female afaik. And also afaik, one doesn't just choose to identify as another gender. Look, I may be wrong here, but gender dysphoria is NOT a choice people make. If you are the opposite gender as you're born with, it's not because you suddenly chose to be that. No, what Yamato is saying is that she adopted the persona and mannerism and such of ODEN, because she believes Wano needs an Oden. We'll see how long that lasts now that Momo is the "new Oden". Timjer (talk) 15:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Anyway, the BEST argument you can make is that Yamato is gender fluid or something. But not that she's male. Timjer (talk) 15:43, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Infoboxes are from Oda himself which called Yamato a female. Every other source including Vivre Cards called her female. SeaTerror (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that Yamato is still biologically female. I'm interpreting "Became a man" in this circumstance to mean identify as a male, which is supported by the latest chapter. This isn't a discussion about whether Yamato has true body dysphoria and we don't need a complete medical diagnosis on Yamato. What we do know from this chapter if that Yamato considers themselves to be among the "male" group of characters and additional assumptions like "Yamato is just familiar with them" are disproved because Yamato says there is no mixed-bathing here. I'd like to also point out that I haven't used ad hominems once here and I never said you should stay out of it. If you have any issues with me personally, take it off this talk page. Damage3245 (talk) 15:48, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

So you admit that Yamato is not trans? And therefore not male? Because afaik that means Yamato is male just as much as Mulan is male.; putting up a male persona does NOT mean you identify as male. "This isn't a discussion about whether Yamato has true body dysphoria" Well, forgive me, but a LOT of people do think it IS that. "If you have any issues with me personally, take it off this talk page." I don't have issues with you. I haven't been in any way impolite in this thread. But YOU did say to me that I should stay out of this if I don't like the discussion and you DID get offended when I expressed my (justified) frustration that this discussion is being pointlessly revived. Timjer (talk) 15:54, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Timjer; I never said you should stay out of the discussion, I said that anyone who is tired of the discussion can stay out of it. I do get offended when people misquote me and derail the topic from its intended purpose. And regardless of my personal opinion of whether Yamato is trans, male or has body dymorphia, I am preferring to go off of what the manga is presenting rather than my personal opinions on it. Whether I "admit" that Yamato is not trans or whatever has no bearing on it. Damage3245 (talk) 15:58, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Except I did NOT derail the topic in any way! My VERY FIRST comment on this thread was on-topic and compared Yamato to Kiku. You're derailing it by getting offended at anything I say and you're the one who keeps bringing that up instead of staying on topic. Timjer (talk) 16:01, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Timjer; can you please stop now? Let us make this the last post on this and from now on let the talk page be focused on discussing the new information. Any further posting outside of that will be derailing. I'm just trying to get us back on track. Damage3245 (talk) 16:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This debate is just absurd, Yamato is Oden, you have to apply that logic to any decision she mades. She said that Momo was her son because "she is Oden", and she takes baths with the boys because Oden was a man and he took baths with men, end. Cracker-Kun (talk)

"I am preferring to go off of what the manga is presenting" Oda himself trumps the manga. I already mentioned what he decided. SeaTerror (talk) 16:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

"I'm tired of this discussion" is not a valid argument. If you are tired of it then feel free to not participate on this talk page. There is a legitimate reason as to why this discussion has started back up again.

"Oda trumps the manga" makes no sense as Oda wrote the manga. Especially when you are using that argument to support an earlier development over a later one, in almost all instances of the author overriding their text it is the later version that is correct.

Where Kiku bathed in the past has no bearing on this discussion especially considering that she is bathing with the women in the present day because that is how she identifies, and we even get further explanation that she bathed with Oden and the other Scabbard men because she felt comfortable with them. As far as we know, Yamato is in the men's bath for the same reason Kiku is in the women's bath, and saying that Yamato joined the men because of "comfort" the way Kiku bathed with the Scabbards is completely unfounded.

At this point, I think it is clear that Oda is not treating Yamato adopting Oden's identity as though it is a joke. Obviously, there are objective differences between them that Yamato cannot change. Even if Yamato considers Momonosuke as a son, Momonosuke does not accept Yamato as a father, and thus they cannot be considered parent and child for the same reason that Judge and Sanji are not considered parent and child, as Sanji does not recognize Judge as his father. However, I believe that the things Yamato can change have been changed. We acknowledge that Yamato has elected to use the name "Kozuki Oden" in addition to Yamato, and I believe the bath scene makes it clear that Yamato has chosen to go as a man, which he can choose to do. I am open to further discussion into how we should treat Yamato's intent to become Oden, but this is my conclusion based on the facts presented. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:59, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

""Oda trumps the manga" makes no sense as Oda wrote the manga. Especially when you are using that argument to support an earlier development over a later one, in almost all instances of the author overriding their text it is the later version that is correct."

The infoboxes are directly from Oda. What part of this chapter did Oda reintroduce Yamato's infobox? SeaTerror (talk) 17:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Kaido's view on how this development changed the narrative slightly. Then again, both sides have solid grounds to stand on, since what people see as correct matters on perspectives based for a large part on personal viewpoints and ideologies. A long discussion isn't going to help anything here. Yeah, sure, Oda said this and that in the past, but as others have brought up, this chapter did give a slightly more nuanced message to the overall picture. I say keep this discussion short and poll it. Aurora^[1] | Yes? 17:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Upon further reflection I do want to acknowledge that a lot of out-of-universe references to Yamato do state or at least imply that Yamato is female. However, I still believe firmly at this point that in the story Yamato fully identifies as a man and other characters have accepted this. Until these sides are resolved more cleanly, I would be okay with reverting to what we did before and electing to refer to Yamato as gender neutrally as possible. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Gender neutality as an option here seems more than fair, and we can always keep the Gender section on Yamato's page to explain the out-of-universe material. Damage3245 (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think whether or not Yamato qualifies as transgender matters to this discussion, but since it came up I want to point out that there are many real transgender people without gender dysphoria, Yamato doesn't need to have gender dysphoria to identify as a man. A hang-up for some people seems to be the idea that Yamato doesn't meet some criteria to truly identify as a man, but this criteria doesn't even exist in real life.

Yamato said that he became a man, which is a direct statement of his identity. He has referred to himself as Kaido's son since he was eight years old, and has introduced himself to people as Kaido's son on multiple occasions. When there was no mixed bathing, Yamato chose to bathe with the men. On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing in the story which indicates that Yamato identifies as a woman. Yamato's infobox and Vivre Card CALL him a woman, but they don't make any statements which clarify Yamato's identity in a way which explains why he acts the way he does in the manga (for example saying something like "Yamato only calls herself a man for X reason but otherwise feels like a woman"). So why should the infobox or Vivre Card be considered above the events of the story itself which have repeatedly had Yamato demonstrate that he identifies as a man?

Yamato called Momonosuke his son because Momonosuke was Oden's son. But in other scenes where Yamato is referring to himself as Yamato and not Oden, he calls himself Kaido's son. And Oden was not Kaido's son. If Yamato only identified as a man when "roleplaying" as Oden, but otherwise thought of himself as a woman, why does he not call himself Kaido's daughter when referring to that relationship which has nothing to do with Oden? It's clear that Yamato thinks of himself as a man whether or not he's "acting" as Oden.

The most important thing when deciding what gender to refer to a character as should be how that character personally identifies, and there continues to be more and more evidence that Yamato sincerely identifies as a man. Until there's evidence of Yamato's identity changing, I don't see any reason why referring to Yamato as a woman should be a valid option. DewClamChum (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato's a woman. She's in the men's bath because that's what Oden would do and because it would be weird to party with the icky girls. It's a gag. Unless Oda explicitly states "Yamato is male", we should go with what we've seen, that she's a woman who acts like she's "one of the boys".

You have to consider that Oda's track record with gender identity isn't...particularly great. Kiku was a rare exception to his usual "ha ha cross dresser funny" shtick, but now with Yamato people are grasping at straws looking for things that aren't there. With Kiku, there was a single line revealing that she was born male but literally everything else about her is female.

At most, I'd say include the bath scene in the gender paragraph displaying how it makes things more confusing, but Yamato preferring to hang out in a bath with the boys doesn't suddenly mean she identifies as male. She's doing it because it's what Oden would do.

And yes, she refers to herself as "Kaidou's son", "Oden", etc. But in addition to the infobox describing her as "Kaidou's daughter", the vivre card (which comes from Oda) said she's female (with no caveats like Kiku, if her gender was described as "male at heart" or even "Oden" then things would be different), plus she appears with other women in a lot of additional One Piece content (that World 100 video or whatever, the Heroines novels, etc.).

Honestly, I get the feeling that in the next chapter or two, depending on whether Yamato joins, Oda's gonna have to come to a point where he lets Yamato be her own character instead of just an Oden cosplayer. We'll see what happens, but I think he'll let Yamato come into her own. Until then, I say we keep things as is and just add an additional note that the situation remains thorny. The Pope 19:51, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with Kaido now, regardless of Yamato being female we've seen that he still prefers and wants male pronouns. Also, I need to say that him being a girl isn't incompatible with using male pronouns. We ain't really here to discuss which gender he relates to but how is he described and refered, and it is clear that it is with male pronouns so there shouldn't really be a lot of discussion after chapter 1052 proving once again how he should be treated. Pau D. Seven·Talk 20:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with changing the page to reflect Yamato's identity as a man. But like AOD, I think this should be a poll. I have no patience for people being rude or dismissive in this discussion. If anyone is tired of the discussion, you don't have to participate. Otherwise, please present your ideas/opinions in a respectful way.

To the arguments saying we should wait, every week we mark characters as unknown or deceased, but Oda fakes us out on deaths all the time. Should we wait until the end of the arc for that, too? I know it is not the exact same thing, but what I'm trying to articulate is that we base articles off chapters each week. If Yamato identifies as female in two or three chapters, we can change it back. But going off the info we have right now, he identifies as a man. Montblanc Noland :: Talk 20:07, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I still believe Yamato should be kept identified as a female until we see how Oda play things out after Wano, I don't think we should change it immediately however I also have no problem if it gets changed to gender neutrality for the time being.Opera298 (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

By the way, to anyone saying "Yamato prefers male pronouns"...uh, no? You do know that gendered pronouns don't exist in Japanese, right? It's what's caused all this confusion to begin with. The Pope 21:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This is not actually true. Gendered pronouns are extraordinarily rare in Japanese speech/writing compared to English, but they exist. The original Metroid specifically used them as a misdirection tactic regarding Samus's gender reveal in the best ending https://legendsoflocalization.com/qa-was-samus-called-a-he-in-japanese-too/ MugMonster (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Yamato is a man, as he identifies, within the story itself. Also as DewClamChum pointed out, Yamato does not always "roleplay" as Oden, and still calls himself a man and a son independent from anything with Oden. I feel like The Pope's comments about him is really short-sighted about Yamato's character. He doesn't just characterize himself as Oden, and not everything he does is because "it's what Oden would do". Yamato doesn't even mention Oden in regards to the bathhouse scene, so this idea that he would join the men only because "that's what Oden would do" is just a subjective inference, and it's one that I don't find very agreeable. I could even say that the panel with Yamato and Kiku choosing their bathhouses was a deliberate nod from Oda on their gender identities. It just seems a little too perfect, but that's also a subjective inference. But at least it's based on the content and structure of the story and not a flanderized interpretation of the character in question.
As for content such as Vivre Card that mentions Yamato's apparent gender identity, that's a pretty strong case for the idea that Yamato is a woman. However, it isn't the manga, and it's not really about how he refers to himself in the manga or how other characters refer to him in the manga. If the content that Oda is directly, 100% involved with treats Yamato as a man, why is this superfluous external material that serves a different purpose from the main narrative medium, and is mostly just a collection of information that Oda only needs to give an "okay" on to pass, treated as higher than the narrative itself? The manga IS higher in our "canon hierarchy" than the databooks, after all. That's not even getting into the fact that Vivre Card itself isn't fully reliable. The VERY first page of this new chapter, in fact, contradicts it: Caesar Clown did not escape Whole Cake Island. That's not to say databooks should never be taken into account, but they aren't the be-all-end-all of information.
Having said that, while I'm in full 100% support of treating Yamato as a man given the evidence in the narrative, it might be a good compromise if Yamato was treated more ambiguously. Avoid pronouns, or use they/them, until the situation is fully clear. I also, personally, think we should wait a week before making a real decision. Only because next week is the final chapter before Oda goes on a month-long break, and there could be more useful information then. But I understand if that's a bit counter-productive. My vote is for treating Yamato as a man, because Yamato is a man.uknownada ^Talk 21:28, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

EVERYTHING about Yamato's gender is subjective except the following:

• "Oden was a man, right? So I became a man too."
• Yamato's intro card as "Kaidou's daughter"
• The Vivre card

Everything else is what we, the viewer, have taken away with it with a western, progressive gender perspective. We can feel like Yamato identifies as a woman, but at the end of the day, it's Oda's word over ours. We can include all this other information in the gender translation section, but for the meantime, we need to go with the facts that Oda has objectively laid out. Everything else about Yamato's gender can be construed one way or another, but at the end of the day, the overwhelming objective evidence is in that Oda considers Yamato a woman who prefers to behave and be treated like a man, not necessarily that she completely identifies as one. The Pope 21:36, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

If you want a manga only argument then Sanji's reaction in the latest chapter would also point against Yamato not being male. SeaTerror (talk) 21:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

The Pope, then you are agreeing that since he prefers to be treated like a man we should use male pronouns to talk about him like all the characters in the series do. Pau D. Seven·Talk 22:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Like I said, gendered pronouns don't exist in Japanese. So "all the characters" don't refer to her as anything. The closest you can get is the Beasts Pirates calling her "Kaidou's son", which is already super confusing. Considering her cantakerous relationship with her father, I highly doubt Kaidou said "you know, my daughter's taking on the name of my sworn enemy but I should really accept his new gender identity, I'm a good dad". Like...in what universe does that happen, lol. It's more likely Yamato came out as a girl, Kaidou said "what no I want a son, you're my son, deal with it", and that's how this whole thing started. That's certainly conjecture, but that's the thing, we don't know. What we do know is that Oda referred to her as a woman in the vivre card. Therefore, he considers her a woman, regardless of what us gender theorists may think. The Pope 22:25, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I can't say anything about pronouns as I can't read Japanese and I'm not sure how they approach gendered pronouns, if any at all. But all characters HAVE referred to Yamato as a man. You ask "in what universe does that happen" with your fake Kaido quote, and yeah, that doesn't happen. Kaido does not say "my daughter" at any point in the entire series. He only refers to Yamato, even before he's introduced, as "my son", and Yamato refers to himself as "son of Kaido". He's called a man throughout the couple of years we've known him at this point. He's even in the bathhouse, with the men, with no protest or confusion from anybody. If you want to act like he's not being referred to by a man in the story itself or treated as a man by the characters with that, well, I can't control your personal thoughts. But the literal only instance that Yamato is ever referred to as female in the manga is in his infobox. This whole debate is kind of on that infobox, if you think about it. It all centers on whether or not we respect how characters feel or stick with the undiagetic information, which is prone to error and change. Oda's involvement with Vivre Card isn't even as clear-cut as his involvement with the manga, but that's a different debate. I feel like what's really missing is actual evidence that Yamato SHOULD be treated as a woman. The story doesn't, the characters don't, and even Oda clearly doesn't. He's the one who's writing the characters, after all. Objectively, we have conflicting information from Oda himself about what Yamato should be referred to as. At that point, I think it's best we go for how Yamato is referred to in the story itself. I think you know really well that if Oda did treat Yamato as a woman, none of us would be talking about this. uknownada ^Talk 22:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

"If you want a manga only argument then Sanji's reaction in the latest chapter would also point against Yamato not being male."

Yeah that's not a very good argument as no one is expecting characters who aren't acquainted with Yamato to instantly know that he identifies as male. This happened before in Ch. 999 with the Spade Pirates and Ch. 984 with Luffy, and Yamato quickly explained to Luffy why he states to be Kaido's son. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

"He's even in the bathhouse, with the men, with no protest or confusion from anybody."

um

Momonosuke is clearly confused, lol. Sanji and Brook are having mini freakouts. It's pretty clear they view Yamato as a woman, regardless of how you think of her.

Meanwhile, Luffy's basically asexual so he doesn't care, and Zoro's never been a horndog so it's reasonable he wouldn't care either. Chopper's innocent (and doesn't like humans, the only woman he's ever shown attraction to was that reindeer mink) and then Jinbe and Nekomamushi are just whatever about it.

At any rate, "no confusion from anybody" is just objectively wrong to a funny degree.

As for "how much involvement from Oda is clear-cut with the Vivre Cards", I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that every piece of information there comes straight from his mouth. And he didn't put down Yamato's gender as "man at heart" or anything like that. This week's chapter aside, I honestly believe it's still pretty clear-cut. The Pope 23:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato has also been refered by the Beasts Pirates as "Oni Princess" (ch. 1024) as well as "Beasts Pirates Princess (Vivre Card), that should be also taken into account. Cracker-Kun (talk) 23:31, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah, that's right. He is called Ogre Princess, according to Viz, in that chapter. Which Yamato responds demanding he's Oden. Though this is when he's a child, and probably really believed he was Oden, or wanted to convince himself as being Oden. A slightly different mindset than now, but still. That's an instance where he's called female. The Vivre Card part I think is strong too, mainly because it's a specific alias (although maybe a slight error? Shouldn't it be Oni/Ogre Princess?). Either way, Yamato still identifies as Yamato while stanning Oden, and identifying as a man. I still think man is necessary, but it really shows how not clear-cut this whole thing really is. Dunno what else to say except I stand slightly corrected. lol uknownada ^Talk 03:11, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

"Kaido does not say "my daughter" at any point in the entire series. He only refers to Yamato, even before he's introduced, as "my son", and Yamato refers to himself as "son of Kaido".

That would be because only males can be shogun. SeaTerror (talk) 03:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Pretty sure Yamato objecting to Onihime was due to not wanting to be thought of as an Oni's child, not because "gender bad". Again, I find it hard to believe that Kaidou and the entirety of the Beasts Pirates would refer to her as Kaidou's son out of respect for her choices when it's clear that Kaidou has zero respect for her, or her choices. The Pope 04:09, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Arguments like "Kaido only refers to Yamato as his son because he wants Yamato to be Shogun" are entirely rooted in headcanon and not necessary on this wiki. Damage3245 (talk) 10:07, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Right. MOST things regarding Yamato's gender are rooted in headcanon, beyond the three points I mentioned ("Oden was a man, so I chose to become a man too", the infobox, the vivre card). Everything beyond those is subjective. The Pope 16:49, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

The information from the latest chapter is not subjective. It's extremely direct information from Yamato themselves. Damage3245 (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato wanting to go into the men's bath is direct. Why she wanted to do it (she identifies as a male, she identifies as Oden, Oden would be in the male bath, she'd rather just be with the guys because she'd be more comfortable, etc.) is subjective. She does not say the words "I want to go into the men's bath because I am a man." Everything beyond her being in the men's bath is subjective. The Pope 18:14, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato said she couldn't go bathing with Nami because there was no mixed bathing. If she identified as a woman, why would the "no mixed bathing" rule stop her from bathing with other women? Damage3245 (talk) 18:21, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Because "Oden is a man" and she wants to do what Oden would do? Reading into her identity as Oden, or Oden AND male, or as two separate things, or one in the same, it's all subjective. Whether it's "I want to be in the men's bath because I'm a man" or "I want to be in the men's bath because I'm Oden", we don't know the real answer (it's more likely the latter), and reading deeper into it is subjective. Oden is male. She wants to be Oden. That's all that's objective. If Oden was a woman, would she go in the women's bath? Maybe, probably? We don't know. It's a thorny issue, and one that we can't make assumptions on based on our own thoughts and feelings. The Pope 18:24, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

If Oden was a woman we wouldn't be having this discussion. But speculating on how Yamato would act differently if Oden were anything different is pointless. What we have to deal with is how the series actually is, AKA what Yamato actually identifies as in canon. And we have three cases now of Yamato affirming a male identity; saying they chose to become male since Oden was, saying that they're Kaido's son and choosing to bathe in the male area in a no-mixed bathing area. Damage3245 (talk) 18:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

You're right. What Yamato identifies as is canon. Because the Vivre cards are canon. And the Vivre card states she's a woman.

The latter two things you mentioned, again, are completely subjective. Why does she call herself "Kaidou's son"? Is it because she identifies as male? Because Kaidou wanted a son, so he forced her to be called his son? We don't know, and trying to read gender theory into it is being subjective. All we can go off of is objective information, and the fact is that Oden labelled her as "Daughter of Kaidou" and that in the Vivre card listed her as a woman. If Zoro spent the first 30 chapters of his introduction claiming "I'm a big green pickle" regardless of all word of Oda stating otherwise, would we refer to him as a big green pickle? Yes, gender is a complicated issue and we don't want to misgender someone. But your own progressive well-meaning mindset isn't what needs to be making the deciding factor, it's what Oda himself has stated as fact. The Pope 18:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I’m pretty new to this community but I’ve been following this discussion for a while now and I wanted to give my thoughts on it.

My thoughts are solely based on two pieces of evidence, the first is Yamato’s quote (“Oden was a man, so I chose to become a man too") and second, the discussion that takes place in chapter 1052.

But first I’d like to reiterate two basic facts. First, Yamato is an adult who is capable of making their own choices. Second, Fictional characters should be treated with the same amount of respect as living people due to the fact that they are analogs for real people.

To start I’d like to take a look at the quote. “Oden was a man, so I chose to become a man too.” This is a declaration of intent, and it is also a declaration of reasoning. In this sentence Yamato states that they chose to become a man, and that the reason was because Oden was a man.

I’ve noticed a lot of people taking issue with the reasoning behind this statement, but I’d argue that the reasoning isn’t actually very important. If we look at real world examples of trans people, we can see that there are many reasons why one might choose to transition. This ranges from gender dysphoria, intersex, and even simple personal preference. There are no “correct” or “incorrect” reasons for a person to feel the need to transition, and a person’s reasoning shouldn’t invalidate their choice.

Now once a person chooses to transition, it is followed by action. The type of action that is taken differs from person to person, but it usually leads to a behavioral change, a physical change, or both. In chapter 1052 we see Yamato make a decision that is a direct result of behavioral change.

When Nami asks to bathe together, Yamato’s first instinct is not just to decline, but to give a reason as to why they can’t (“this castle doesn’t have mixed baths”). This shows that Yamato has no problem with the notion of bathing with Nami, specifically, their problem lies with the fact that a man should not use a woman’s bath. This behavior only makes sense if Yamato sees themselves as a man, and thus, is taking action that reflects the choice they made when they decided to become a man.

Which means at in its simplest terms, Yamato chose to become a man, Yamato see’s themselves as a man, and Yamato makes decisions that reflect their choice to become a man.

It is out of respect for this that I believe that Yamato should be referred to as a trans man.

Lastly, a few other points of note: Kiku, who is a trans woman is allowed to bathe with the women, this shows respect for their preferred gender. Kiku’s who is a trans woman, has a vivre card that states their biological sex as male, therefore it would make sense for Yamato’s vivre card to state their biological sex as well. FacelessGiant (talk) 19:13, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Except Kiku's Vivre card doesn't state that she's male. It states that she's a "woman at heart" (the Japanese equivalent of "trans woman"). So it's two completely different situations here.

One thing you need to keep in mind is the difference between a desired reading and authorial intent. Even if it makes perfect sense to you that Yamato identifies as a man, if Oda says she's a woman, she's a woman. That's it. End of story. You can even call Oda "transphobic" for that if you want, but it's his world, and it's his decision how to label characters, not ours. The Pope 19:27, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Oda can say Yamato is a woman and we can still use male pronouns or gender-neutral pronouns to refer to Yamato. The two things are not mutually exclusive and we're not forbidden from choosing that course of action. Also, the information from the manga takes higher priority than past statements in the databooks. Databooks can be outdated. Damage3245 (talk) 20:35, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

The databook is...what, half a year old? Pretty sure Oda didn't suddenly have a radical change of mind in that time given Yamato's been in the series for years now. The only new relevant information is "Yamato chose to bathe with the boys", which is not in and of itself instant solidification of her true gender identity. Also, Oda said one thing but we're gonna say another thing" is...basically us as westerners writing our own fanfiction instead of sticking to the facts as Oda laid them out. The Pope 20:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm also new here but have been following this discussion for quite some time. While the Vivre card stating female is indeed a solid piece of evidence for Yamato being female, I think we have much stronger evidence in Yamato's words and actions in the manga itself. Yamato has repeatedly referred to himself as a man or as Kaido's son, every character in-universe also addresses and refers to Yamato in this way, Yamato said that they "became a man", and now Yamato chooses to bathe with the men instead of the women. Honestly, does it really matter whether or not Yamato has gender dysphoria? It has been made abundantly clear by Yamato himself that he views himself as a man. Even if that is stemming purely from a desire to become Oden, that is still how he views himself and chooses to present himself. K3fka (talk) 22:00, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Literally the only time Yamato ever referred to herself as a man was when she said "Oden was a man so I became one too". Literally ever other instance is just the phrase "Kaidou's son". No other claims of gender whatsoever. The Pope 22:03, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but...do you seriously think Yamato's decision to bathe with the men, with the context that they don't mix genders in the baths, isn't a direct claim of gender?? You're acting like these two things are completely unrelated. The fact that he says he's joining the men at the same time as Kiku joining the women is the JOKE of the panel! No claims of gender? It's literally related TO gender. You're the one who's claiming that it's an Oden thing, without evidence. uknownada ^Talk 02:46, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's an Oden thing. I'm saying it could be an Oden thing, and that we genuinely do not know. She didn't say "I'm going to bathe with the men because I'm a man," she said "I'm going to bathe with the men." That's literally it. Reading into it is entirely subjective. And until we do know for sure, it's better to stick to only facts that Oda has deliberately spelled out (that being "Yamato is female" in the vivre card). The Pope 03:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"Arguments like "Kaido only refers to Yamato as his son because he wants Yamato to be Shogun" are entirely rooted in headcanon and not necessary on this wiki." Wano is based off the Edo period. It is not headcanon.

"The information from the latest chapter is not subjective. It's extremely direct information from Yamato themselves. " There was no direct info from Yamato because Yamato never stated any pronouns. SeaTerror (talk) 03:10, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"I'm not saying it's an Oden thing. I'm saying it could be an Oden thing, and that we genuinely do not know. She didn't say "I'm going to bathe with the men because I'm a man," she said "I'm going to bathe with the men.""

You may not know this, but a lot of us do genuinely know this. I don't think there is any room for this to be an "Oden thing" unless you had direct evidence of Yamato stating "I'm going to bathe with the men because that's what Oden would do." Saying that information should be kept off the wiki because there are hypothetical possible alternatives is like saying Ashura Doji and Izo should be marked as still alive because there's a chance everyone mistook them for dead and they're just sleeping. There's a limit to how far we can refuse clear information being communicated to us in the manga. I say that we do know better and Yamato explicitly stating that they can't bathe with the women because of a no-mixed bathing rule, is as clear as you can get. At this point there is more evidence supporting Yamato viewing themselves as male than otherwise. Damage3245 (talk) 07:42, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

The Pope...So is Yamato's comment about the gendered baths...just a coincidence? Yamato literally says that they don't allow mixed baths. If Yamato did not view himself as a man, which he's expressly said he does, he would have bathed with the women. Unless you assume that he's just being hypocritical. Or, do you assume that "mixed baths" refers to one bath being mixed with soap from Udon and the other bath being being mixed with soap from Kibi and both soaps aren't allowed to cross into the other baths? Or something? You're being really weird avoiding the fact that Yamato directly acknowledged the gendered bathhouses. That's not speculation. It's not a subjective interpretation. That's what he SAYS! He doesn't even say what you're quoting, man. They don't allow mixed baths, so he's not mixing the baths. We also know for a fact that it's not an Oden thing, because he doesn't say it's an Oden thing. He says it's a gendered thing. That's what "mixed bath" means.
As for facts that Oda has deliberately spelled out, here's a few reminders. Yamato calls himself a man. Other characters call him a man. He's called the son. He went into the men's bath with the expressed idea that the baths do not mix the genders. Oda even wrote (or technically Stephen Paul (or technically Vanessa Satone)) "Men's Bath" in the panel with the men's bath, where Yamato, the person who directly says women do not belong in the men's bath, is in the men's bath, and Oden has nothing to do with it. I'm sorry that I have to keep repeating it, but you keep deliberately avoiding it. The fact that Yamato is choosing to bathe with the men is, objectively, demonstrably, supported by the text itself, a gendered thing. That isn't subjective, because it's provable. This IS spelled out by Oda, and it's from a much more reputable source as well. Yamato is acknowledged and treated like a man. Oda wrote it that way. This fact cannot be disputed. Please acknowledge it.uknownada ^Talk 07:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

If I still may put forth my opinion; while I still believe that Yamato identifies as female (as per the author's statements and such), I do agree the issue has become even more muddled than it used to be. Hence I propose a compromise to put this temporarily to rest; until Yamato outright confirmes in the manga how they view themselves (probably by dropping the "I'm Oden" Shtick) maybe we should just refer to Yamato with gender-neutral pronouns. That way at least the heated discussion can be calmed down just a bit. Timjer (talk) 08:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

uknownada, please read what I said closer.

The reason she preferred the men's bath when mixed baths weren't an option isn't clear. Maybe she identifies as a man. Maybe it's what Oden would do. We don't know, and I hate that I keep having to repeat myself.

Anyway, I believe her gender should remain the same throughout the article (nothing has changed; she's Kaidou's daughter, as Oda described her as, and she's female as Oda described her as). At most, an additional note should be added to the gender section about this whole bath thing and how it's just made the issue more confusing. The Pope 08:21, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"Maybe it's this thing that's directly stated by the character and scene and supported by the consistent characterization, or maybe it's this completely unrelated thing that there is no evidence for. There's just simply no way to tell. Either could be plausible!"
By the way, reading your comments back, you absolutely treated the idea that Yamato only joined the men's bath "because Oden would do it" as a matter of fact. Even saying that "it would be weird to party with icky girls" which is an unsubstantiated statement about Yamato AND Oden! And once again, you are deliberately avoiding the fact that Yamato joining with the men is a gendered thing. It's so explicit that you'd have to be purposefully misreading it. Which I guess you are if you're making up quotes like "I'm going to bathe with the men", which, by the way, if it was a real quote, would be great evidence that Yamato is a woman. Because logically, he wouldn't separate himself from the men if he didn't identify as one, because he literally says they don't mix baths. but maybe it's because Oden would do it idkuknownada ^Talk 08:56, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Right now the talk page stands at 9 in overt favor of male and 3 in favor of female, with two users (Opera298 and Timjer) supporting a more gender neutral approach. Based on this, here is what I propose:

• We generally write about Yamato in a gender neutral style eschewing pronouns.
• If pronouns are used, they should be masculine (he/him/his)
• Once this style has been implemented, users should not edit text solely to make it more or less gender neutral.
• Yamato's article will acknowledge the discrepancies in how he is referred to, namely how other characters treat him as male while official material slants more toward female. It will be acceptable to refer to Yamato as the daughter of Kaidou, but son of Kaidou is also fine, better even.
• This may be a bit more controversial, but I would propose adding *both* the Male and Female Characters categories to Yamato's page for the time being, given that Yamato has been identified as both in official material. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 09:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I wanna make it clear, I'm in full support of masculine pronouns, but I'm also in support of a gender-neutral article. I think that may be best given how divisive the debate has become. With conflicting evidence between the manga and databook, it does feel like the only "correct" option. Yamato's discrepancies is absolutely necessary to point out. Of course, I also think this should be polled. And if Oda does outright give an answer via SBS or an interview, then maybe we can finally put this discussion to a definite close.uknownada ^Talk 09:38, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Would it go to a poll with gender neutral too? SeaTerror (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Kaido's proposal. Nevertheless, we'll make the change on the Catalan wiki. Piece•Enrik•  talk  co 18:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

My preference is just referring to Yamato as a man, especially because so many people seem to be in favor of it, so I still want us to vote on that. But I think Kaido's proposal is good as a second option, even better than gender-neutral pronouns. DewClamChum (talk) 21:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Given that a clear majority definitely prefers going back to gender neutral at the very least, I amended Yamato's article to reflect this, as otherwise the page would reflect a current minority viewpoint for multiple weeks longer while we do a poll, which has been set up below. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

It's possible for women to do activities with men without being trans/changing pronouns. Crazyface201 (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is. But Yamato is specifically against women doing this particular activity with men.uknownada ^Talk 08:30, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

When was that established? I do not remember that.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC))

In chapter 1052, page 13. Damage3245 (talk) 10:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I haven't had time to read this entire discussion (hopefully I can later tonight), but I wanted to let people know where I'm at with this issue: There is a lot of evidence pointing either way towards Yamato identifying as either gender. But what there's not is any evidence of the character themselves saying "do not call me this gender." In 1051 Yamato states "I am Kozuki Oden, otherwise known as Yamato" which to me read like Yamato is fine with either identity. 1052's comment about "there's no mixed bathing in this castle" read to me like Yamato would prefer mixed bathing over gendered bathing.

My main concerns over this issue have always been 1) How can the wiki use accepting language on an issue that people have different (and valid!) opinions on? and 2) What can we actually cite as a encyclopedic enitity?

My personal reading of the character and all the evidence is that I think Yamato could very well be accepting of both gender identities and is more fluid than some readers want to admit. But my opinion alone can't be cited, all we have now is two piles of evidence for two genders, and no clear explanation from any source on the character's identity that acknowledges the controversy directly. We have all these piles of evidence saying "x is the correct gender" but nothing saying "X is the incorrect gender". I think until we have that cite-able piece of evidence that any gender identity is wrong, no reader, wiki, or opinion can be proven incorrect, and we'd be doing a disservice to the wiki's readers to claim it goes one way or the other. It's a complicated issue, and it think it's best to leave it complicated and explain the complexity to the best of our ability until we can make a clear and obvious decision,

In my mind right now, I think the best solution is to say that character "is sometimes identified as female, and sometimes identifies as male" and only use gendered pronouns when talking about series content that is explicily gendered. I also suggest using both male and female in the infobox/wiki categories until anything else changes. Using they/them or gender neutral in most other contexts for now. If we have the evidence to cite both positions, let's just do that very thing.

I'm honestly hesitant to poll the issue, because I don't think that majority rules will help us stay in line with Fandom's Gender Idenitiy Guidelines. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 12:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with JustSomeDude, both that we probably shouldn't poll (as that might just make things worse) and that the source material is too unclear to make a proper decision. It's why I, despite my personal opinion on the matter, suggested we should probably just remain gender-neutral. Timjer (talk) 13:40, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Poll Discussion

Here is the preliminary draft of the poll. To be clear, there is not a "female outright" option on the poll as per what FANDOM staff specified in our last discussion on this topic. The gender neutral/female preferred option would essentially maintain the status quo that occurred following that discussion.

The start date of the poll is midnight next Monday; this will allow us to respond to any potential new information from Ch. 1053. In the meantime, post here if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions regarding this poll. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Gender neutral literally means they/them with no pronouns. They/them is the flat neutral option so that there are no preferred pronouns. SeaTerror (talk) 02:30, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Because FANDOM has ruled on this topic, we will no longer be having a poll. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 21:45, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Trivia permission or question

Because of ep 1009, is it possible to put the Trivia that Yamato (in the anime), is first female-based character to NOT express a "blank and aloof" upon seeing Franky's Iron Pirate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WhalBP (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

That sounds rather trivial for trivia. Also probably not true. uknownada ^Talk 02:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Fandom Staff's Direction on Language Used for Yamato

Hello all,

I'm Lucas DeRuyter, Fandom's Anime Community Manager, and today I wanted to provide some direction on how gendered language should be used in reference to Yamato, based on the most recent events of the manga.

As per Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines, he/him pronouns should be used for Yamato and Yamato's character page should belong to the "Male Characters" category. While Yamato's gender identify was ambiguous in his introduction, since then an overwhelming number of characters, including Yamato himself, use he/him pronouns in reference to Yamato and he's appeared in situations that reinforce his male identity.

I'm aware that an instance of narration, some language used in a flashback, and supplementary material to the One Piece text use feminine terminology in reference to Yamato, but these do not outweigh Yamato's use of masculine terminology in reference to himself and this element of his character should be acknowledged and respected.

For this reason, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disallow the use of a community poll to determine the language the One Piece wiki uses in reference to Yamato. While reaching a community consensus before making significant changes to a wiki is encouraged, Fandom has explicit guidelines on how write about a character's gender identity. As such, the poll is essentially a vote on if the community wants to violate Fandom's platform policies, and that's not allowable.

In the coming days I will be coordinating with One Piece wiki leadership on how to best implement and reinforce these language changes, as well as moderate conversations that arise from them. To be completely clear, using anything besides he/him pronouns in reference to Yamato will be considered misgendering and will result in local wiki and global bans.

I apologize for taking so long to address this issue and provide direction to this community. I did not want to raise tensions on a wiki that is near and dear to my heart and, like all One Piece readers, I was not sure of how Yamato's story arc might evolve as the series went on. I can say with confidence now, though, that he/him pronouns must be used in reference to Yamato, for this wiki to meet Fandom's standards of respect and inclusivity.

Thank you all for taking the time to read this message and I hope you have a great day.

Lder1995 (talk) 16:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

My personal opinions on this overruling aside (who even decided that? Was it a fully informed decision, a popular vote made by staff, or just a random dart toss?), there is one question that I have to ask because the implications really frighten me. You said, and I quote "using anything besides he/him pronouns in reference to Yamato will be considered misgendering and will result in local wiki and global bans", isn't that a bit excessive? I mean, should a newcomer make a discussion post and refer to Yamato as "her" or "them", are they going to receive an immediate global ban!? I can understand combating transphobia, but Yamato's gender identity is discussed for a reason, it's not that clear cut as some people might think and many newcomers might be genuinly confused by this and make an innocent mistake. Timjer (talk) 16:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, on a side note, is this excessive ban only enforced for Yamato as your wording suggests, or are characters like Kiku or Morley (who are much more clear-cut exampls of trans people) also included? Timjer (talk) 16:56, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Misgendering Policy Clarification

Thank you for the questions, Timjer. While this decision is primarily mine as the Anime Community Manager, Fandom's entire Community team was consulted and we're in agreement that the changes I've described are needed for this Community to be compliant with Fandom's Gender Identity Guidelines. These guidelines were formed by a panel of Fandom users and staff who are all a part of the LGBTQIA+ community. Additionally, One Piece wiki leadership were informed of this decision prior to this announcement, and members helped me craft the language and communication strategy used to inform the broader One Piece wiki community of this decision.

Bans for misgendering, a form of bullying and hate speech, have been enforced on the Fandom platform for years. Willful misgendering of Yamato or any character on the Fandom wiki platform will be met with the consequences I've described. I hope this response clears up any confusion or ambiguity.

Lder1995 (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Ya know something, with all due respect to women like Kiku, and but also taking Yamato trying to take on Oden's identity (some may say "impersonation") into account, I somehow get the feeling that how you're using gender terminology, and how the Community Team might be using gender terminology, might be quite a bit a ways away off from Oda's use of terminology, which prob isn't the best approach to take at least when you get to banning people out of the way and such.

Crazyface201 (talk) 23:41, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

It’s probably not possible, but I have a suggestion. Split the page into multiple pages, one with male pronouns, one with female pronouns, and one with gender neutral pronouns. Let the individual reader choose which one they want to read. Could that be possible?(GoldenOath20 (talk) 00:01, 17 June 2022 (UTC))

So you're saying you're going to ban people who happen to use she/her pronouns on discussion/talk pages or chats SeaTerror (talk) 03:02, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

While I strongly object to the decision made (and believe that referring to Yamato as female on talk pages being subject to banning when her gender is still an extremely confusing matter is utterly ludicrous), I believe that Oda will clear up the issue and put it to rest (one way or the other) in the near future, at which point I'll accept what he says (and no, I don't believe the bath issue decided the matter whatsoever). The Pope 04:24, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Lder1995 - "I hope this response clears up any confusion or ambiguity." It really does not, to be honest. For starters, you did say that "this decision is primarily mine" but aside from the fact that this more sounds like you're forcing your own, personal opinions on everyone else, you never answered my questions; is it TRULY a fully informed decision!? Likewise, I FULLY understand banning users for cyberbullying and hatespeech, but you once again did not answer my question; "should a newcomer make a discussion post and refer to Yamato as "her" or "them", are they going to receive an immediate global ban!?" Because accidentally referring to a fictional character with the wrong pronouns is NOT in any way the same as cyberbullying and hatespeech. Timjer (talk) 05:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah great, instead of having the ability to decide about the characters in our wiki, someone from "above" has to come and impose their rules and regulations on us, ignoring our guidelines and ways of doing things. Why should we be able to vote or have a voice if in the end the wiki has the ability to impose its decision whether we agree or not? Cracker-Kun (talk) 11:07, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

No disrespect of course, I don't doubt your professionalism, but how do we know that your decision is based on what we have seen of the manga and databooks or is it a personal decision? Are you up to date with One Piece? Have you read Yamato's Vivre Card? It is a very complex subject and that is why we are discussing it. If it were that simple, as was the case with Kiku, the issue would be resolved. That's why we decided to make a vote, because that's how things are done, not imposing them by ignoring our ability to inform the reader as best as possible. Sorry if it sounds a bit rude, that's not my intention, I just want to show my point. Cracker-Kun (talk) 11:17, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. The decision should be based on consensus of the majority. It's only fair.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 11:40, 17 June 2022 (UTC))

To make it even worse, according to Lder1995 themselves, they based their overruling almost solely on the localized versions. They LITERALLY said, and I quote: "this decision is made to reflect the pronouns used for Yamato in the official Viz translation of the manga". So clearly, they did not take the Vivre Card data or the OG Japanese wording or even cultural differences and nuances into account at all. So, yeah, this (combined with the disproprotionate penalty for breaking the ruling) makes it seem like Staff's decision was not objective at all, but rather a single user abusing their authority and forcing their own opinions on everyone else. Timjer (talk) 12:09, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

The majority of the users involved in the discussion were in favor of the change already. Fandom stepping in to make things official might be unnecessary but it shouldn't cause any grief. The community doesn't have a right to violate Fandom's rules after all. Damage3245 (talk) 13:28, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

You're missing the point, Damage. I mean, not only is "globally blocking every newbie who accidentally misgenders Yamato in a discussion" completely disproportionate, but we had internally agreed, civilly, with our Admins to vote on it first, and many were in favor of using, as is probaby most appropriate, gender-neutral terms. Regardless of what the eventual result of the vote would be, not only is Staff arbitrarily overruling us (and kinda abusing their power) before we even made any choice, but they're doing so for very bad reasons. As I just said, Lder1995 themselves outright admitted to making the choice almost by themselves and not making any proper research for their choice (right for the wrong reasons is a thing). Plus the lack of any decent communications certainly doesn't earn them any favors. What Staff is doing (especially outright silencing one side of the argument) is only further pouring fuel onto the fire. Timjer (talk) 13:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Likewise, Damage, can you honestly and with a straight face say that accidentally misgendering a fictional character is the same as cyberbullying and hatespeech!? Because that is pretty much exactly what Lder1995 claims. Timjer (talk) 13:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't claim that, and I don't think that accidental misgendering is something that would automatically be given a global ban. Bans of that magnitude don't just get handed out for accidents. Vandalizing the profile by intentionally changing all of the pronouns on there would be more along the lines of what would be ban-worthy as far as I'm aware. Damage3245 (talk) 14:09, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Lder1995 mentioned gender identity guidelines that were formed by a panel who are all a part of the LGBTQIA+ community. But you should keep in mind that that community only makes up less than 5% of the population on average. Their votes are as valuable as anyone else's, no one can deny that. However that small percentage of the population is pretty far from a majority decision.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 14:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC))

"Bans of that magnitude don't just get handed out for accidents." I'd normally agree with that, Damage. Hence why I deliberatly asked Lder1995 if I didn't misunderstand them. I said, I quote, "should a newcomer make a discussion post and refer to Yamato as "her" or "them", are they going to receive an immediate global ban?" and Lder1995 literally responded with "Willful misgendering of Yamato or any character on the Fandom wiki platform will be met with the consequences I've described." So, yes, it does seem that any ignorant newbie who makes a comment post and thinks Yamato is female is going to get a global block. That is by no way acceptable. Timjer (talk) 14:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Not only that, GoldenOath20, but if the only Staff members who were allowed to make a decision on the Yamato overruling were "all a part of the LGBTQIA+ community", then it doesn't seem to me that the choice was not in any way prejudiced. Even if not intentional, you cannot say that all voters weren't people with a small bias towards Yamato being trans. Timjer (talk) 14:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

If we're going by what's in the Viz manga, guess it's time to change Zoro's name to Roronoa Zolo, yeah? Only fair, I suppose. The Pope 16:43, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Timjer I believe it is exactly the opposite. A newbie coming in and referring to Yamato with other pronouns isn't "Willful misgendering". If they get corrected and continue to refer to him with female pronouns, that would probably be considered "willful". Grdtfrrt (talk) 17:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, except you're "correcting" them with information that remains vague and unclear. Oda's still been very weird about establishing Yamato's gender, so saying "we gave you all this information, now if you keep calling her a woman you're a transphobe" is super insincere and, quite frankly, wrong. The Pope 17:26, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

My comment was only about the concerns of disproportionate bans. I personally don't think calling him a woman or confusing genders is inherently transphobic, but there are other factors that, when compounded, might be considered transphobic alongside that. For example, if I were to misgender somebody and, when they themselves corrected it, I started frantically looking for small pieces of info (birth certificate, ID, medical records, etc) to refute that and insisted on calling him a man, that would be transphobic. To make it clear, I'm NOT saying that's what's happening here, since we can't magically turn Yamato into a real person and ask them. What I AM trying to say is that gender is a complicated matter in general, but it's usually considered transphobic to defer to biology or official documents rather than self-identification when stating somebody's gender. From that perspective, I think constantly deferring to Oda stating that Yamato's official sex is female (rather than what Yamato himself decides) can be considered transphobic, since it's informed/reinforces these stereotypes that trans people can't just decide their gender and/or must be delusional. Grdtfrrt (talk) 17:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

The difference being that Oda is the RL person who writes the fictional Yamato. Besides, Oda confirmed in the very same source that Kiku is undeniably female and that Yamato is not trans. Timjer (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Equally valid then, should be the manga that Oda wrote were Yamato stated he became a man, refers to himself as such, and visits the male baths. Leaving aside that one of them is the main source from which most canon information is revealed, how do we reconcile these two facts? I can only think of four reasons: 1. Oda wrote Yamato as a trans man (their biological sex is female, but their gender is masc), and the Vivre Card is only talking about Yamato's sex. 2. The Vivre Card was mistaken for some reason. 3. Oda wrote Yamato as a woman who is, for some reason, deliberately and knowingly lying about their gender, and the Vivre Card is right about their gender (This is very unlikely, but nonetheless a possibility) 4. Oda wrote Yamato as a woman that delusionally thinks they're a man, and the Vivre Card is right about their gender. It's this last reading that generates problems with their gender, because it is unironically transphobic from Oda's perspective (since it reinforces the stereotype I was talking about before, and invalidates Yamato's self-identification). To me, this last option also seems unlikely, but for some reason it's the one that a lot of people seem to be jumping to. Now, even if this was clarified and ratified by Oda himself, reproducing that idea all over the wiki would still be transphobia (which is not allowed according to the community guidelines of fandom.com (and frankly, pretty uncool in general)). I'm also not saying that in that case we should ignore Oda's intended meaning, but in that case a paragraph surrounding all this information could be added in Yamato's wiki page, without infecting every single use of his pronouns with transphobia. Grdtfrrt (talk) 18:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, concerning your points...

• The Vivre cards state the characters gender, not sex (as it does the same with Kiku and Morley). So it cannot be that.
• The Vivre cards might be mistaken, I admit, but so far we have no reason to believe it is. Besides the manga itself (through the NARRATOR) also calls Yamato things like "Kaido's daughter" and "Oni Princess".
• This is what I think is most likely. Yamato is putting on an "I'm Kozuki Oden" act, and since Oden was a (very manly) man, Yamato therefore also claim to be male. Many people have compared Yamato to Mulan on that front.
• I doubt Oda would do that. So far, he has shown to be pretty progressive by portraying Kiku as a very positive example of a trans person. So I personally don't appreciate that Oda and his fans are portrayed as "transphobic". Especially since even IF Oda is transphobic on that front, it' still unjust to "shoot the messengers rather than the message", as it were. Timjer (talk) 18:50, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not trying to label anyone as transphobic, in fact it's because I don't believe Oda to be transphobic that I'm arguing so much. It doesn't seem like the "Kozuki Oden act" is insencere, though again, I grant it's a possibility. If that ends up being the case I'll accept it, but discussing whether or not Yamato is lying about it based on the Vivre Card is, at the very least, toeing the line regarding transphobia. I'm not saying you are transphobic, I'm sorry if I implied that, but it's a bit hard explaining my positions on this subject without talking about transphobia. It bears mentioning I don't think all transphobia is at the same level, and I don't believe one single instance of Oda writing something like this would undermine his larger work, specially since as you mentioned he has been pretty progressive before. But I also believe when deciding which gender to refer to a character all over a wiki, deferring to higher entities like a narrator or a supporting databook rather than the self-identification of a character, without any indication from that character that they're insencere in that identification, is a bit transphobic. That's why I think the current "gender" section for Yamato is enough, and the rest of the wiki should not make assumptions based in anything other than self-id. Grdtfrrt (talk) 19:34, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

While I'm still in favor of keeping Yamato female (because I'm still convinced that she's a woman who likes acting like Oden, not a trans man separate from her Oden obsession), I'd at least rather keep things gender neutral than saying "he's a man and if you refer to him otherwise you're a transphobe." Also, I don't buy the whole "using the vivre card to demand she's a woman" is transphobic thing. Again, the stuff with Morley and Kiku. If Yamato genuinely identified as a man, there's no reason Oda wouldn't say as much. But he didn't, so it's far more likely she just likes to role play as Oden. In summation, I'm strongly in the female camp, I could accept a "it's complicated" gender-neutral compromise, and outright using male pronouns everywhere is stupid and is a case of the LGBTQ community desperately seeking representation when it isn't there. I'm very happy that Kiku exists as positive representation, but calling Yamato a definitive trans man is cramming a square peg into a round hole. The Pope 20:33, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Staff Follow up Response to New Messages

Hi all, this post is a response to messages posted here during my off hours.

I'd like to begin by reinforcing Fandom's commitment to making our wiki platform a welcoming and inclusive space to individuals of historically oppressed groups and marginalized identities. This is a priority to Fandom as a company and the people working here. Any efforts related to this commitment are not the rogue actions of individuals who work at Fandom, they are an intrinsic part of the platform and Fandom's company values.

I'd also like to assure this community that I'm deeply familiar with One Piece and was hired as Fandom's Anime Community Manager partially because of my anime/manga expertise. I've read the entirety of the One Piece manga, and have been following the franchise for the past eighteen years. I've written about various anime and manga series professionally for a number of outlets -- including Fandom, AnimeFeminist, and Anime Herald -- and have a quarterly segment on my podcast where I discuss seasonal anime and the manga I've experienced recently. It is a facet of my job to be aware of releases and discourse in the broader Anime sphere, so I promise this Staff direction is coming from a member of the anime fandom.

There will not be multiple versions of Yamato's page that use different pronouns.

As several folks have noted supplemental material, such as the Vivre Card - One Piece Visual Dictionary, in arguments in favor of using pronouns besides he/him for Yamato, I want to note that such material was a factor in this decision. However, it does not outweigh the language used in the manga itself. Furthermore, these supplemental materials have a history of inaccuracy across various manga IP. For instance, the official databook for Hunter X Hunter misspells the names of various characters and lists the character Alluka as being male, despite the manga repeatedly noting that she is a trans girl. Rather than be a definitive source of truth, information in databooks and similar materials should be taken into context with all other material related to the franchise.

The thing is is that if you're going to dismiss material like Vivre Card on the basis of possibly being inaccurate, then what's to stop one from saying that Kaido and the beasts pirates may possibly be inaccurate in what they're saying? Repeating something many times doesn't guarantee it to be automatically be more right.

Crazyface201 (talk) 23:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

As for my previous messaging on bans for misgendering, my intent was to remind this community of the policies that have existed for a considerable amount of time and that they will be enforced as they always have been. Fandom as a platform is a space where users can make mistakes and grow from them, but this can only happen when everyone is engaging with each other in good faith on the platform. Ignorance is forgivable, but not excusable and anyone who insists on misgendering Yamato will receive local and global bans of varying lengths depending on the severity of their edits and posts.

Thank you all for taking the time to read this follow up response.

Lder1995 (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Lder1995, I understand most of your arguments, even if I don't agree 100% with all of them. And I'd like to add by saying that I really am an "LGBTQ+ rights supporter" myself, and I despise people who deliberatly discriminate against them. Hell, I'm autistic myself, so I know what it's like to be part of a minority who's often misunderstood and caricaturized by ignorant bigots. You know, the ableist bigots who think we have a disease that makes us "screaming retards" (if you'll forgive my language).

HOWEVER, that all being said in all honestly, there is still something I do have to say. I cannot in good conscience support giving any newcomers to this fandom and site a global ban just because they used the wrong pronoun for a character they may have only seen fanart of so far. That comes across as very toxic and in no way welcoming to any newcomers who genuinely did not mean any harm. There's a huge difference between accidentally misgendering a fictional character than there is to genuinely deadname and cyberbully and such an actual LGBTQ+ person. I hope Staff takes this argument of mine to heart. Because no fictional character is worth hurting RL people over. Timjer (talk) 20:52, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

And to clarify, I don't mean that people who insist on sayo,g "Yamato is obviously female because she has big boobies" shouldn't be banned. Screw those blatantly sexist and transphobic jerks. I just mean that a newcomer who says "who's this hot girl character from One Piece?" Doesn't deserve an instant global block no matter how short it may be. I'd know, as I was once given a global block under false accusations. It was EXTREMELY stressful for me and it took me several tries until I FINALLY managed to find a Staff member who was willing to dig enough to find out I WASN'T responsible for what I was accused of. Timjer (talk) 21:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I think that Lder1995's final post up above should reassure those potential concerns. As he says, users acting in good faith on the platform is fine and only the people who insist on misgendering Yamato (as in, repeated offences after being warned) would be given bans. Damage3245 (talk) 10:51, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

There is no "misgendering" on Yamato. The story has emphasized time and time again that Yamato isn't trying to go against her birth gender, but is a person trying to carry on Oden's will and growing up tomboyish in the process. One can't tell me that motivation doesn't matter if that motivation will be repeated time and time again for doing what she's doing. I know I'm respectfully in the right, as talking of Yamato as being the same as Kiku would be the actual disrespectful action as the woman at heart Kiku made herself clear as for her own life, and that bath gags and Kaido's desire for a male shogun patriarchy doesn't make "impersonation = trans" more respectful either. I say that as just humbly offering my two cents on that note since I wouldn't want Kiku disrespected based on a misunderstanding with Yamato, but I know that many here including the higher ups would rather go about with the agenda of being an LGBTQ supporter rather than trying to analyze the whole field of context the manga's info has for what it has. It's not a bad agenda, but is one some are willing to run with to the point of willingfully disregarding info like Vivre Card info. Crazyface201 (talk) 21:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I have made the decided changes to Yamato's page and am closing this discussion. Further attempts at debate are unproductive and will be removed. This discussion can ONLY open up again if relevant new content is released. If lder wishes to engage in further discussion about this ruling, he can post a place to do so. The page will remain locked to editing for about a week longer, depending on certain factors.

• The facts behind why Yamato is referred to as male, and the discrepancies with sources that call him female, have been noted in the "Gender" section on Yamato's page. Please redirect any unknowing users there.
• Users who are new and try changing pronouns in good faith will be warned about our policy and reasons for it. If said new user ignores this, or an established user who should know very well what this talk page decided tries to change anything, there will be consequences.
• You are free to feel however you like regarding Fandom's involvement in this; I trust and hope that it is a rare event. Do know, however, that the majority on this talk page supported going to male, and Fandom's involvement merely expedited what we would have likely decided to do anyways.

Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

"Four Emperors Saga" > "Wano Country Saga"

Title says it (Haresen12 (talk) 03:04, 5 October 2022 (UTC))

Page shouldn't have gender-related tags

The character has a section devoted entirely to the contradictions in their gender and how there isn't a clear answer. I understand the need to have a consistent set of Pronouns for articles, but Tags are meant for inarguable facts like "This character has Conquerors Haki", and "This Chracter is from Wano", not "This Character might be Trans, its kind of hard to tell and there are two full pages of arguments between users". Gender-related tags should be removed entirely until concrete information is given on the characters gender. DarkinBladeGaming (talk) 00:45, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Categories reflect information presented in the article. We can't simply treat categories as ambiguous when a final decision is made for the article itself. According to the wiki, Yamato is a male character and assigned female at birth. So he belongs in "Male Characters" and "Transgender Characters" categories. This should stay consistent. Otherwise, where would Yamato go? uknownada ^Talk 07:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Yamato's article would be perfectly fine having no Gender-related tags. Imu's article doesn't have any either, because we don't know Imu's gender. And while it is true that tags are meant to reflect the information in the article, this article has an entire section of information on how there is conflicting information on Yamato's gender and we don't actually know what it is because there has been no definitive statement from the source material or creator. The Wiki does need to take a stance because the English language requires defined pronouns to function, and otherwise there would be constant editing clashes between the he crowd and she crowd. Yamato's gender is still ambiguous, so the tags should reflect that. DarkinBladeGaming (talk) 05:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Here's how I see it: Oda personally proofreads the Vivre cards, Oda drew Yamato alongside all those other female characters and had her included in other forms of celebration of the female cast, Oda chose to refer to her as the Demon Princess, Oda has literally explicitly wrote other characters as trans, genderfluid, etc. and would not be the type to play coy and beat around the bush about it if Yamato were meant to be trans, Oda has said and done a lot that contradicts the narrative that Yamato is trans... Huh, call me crazy, but it seems to me like Oda's word, which trumps the feelings of people on this wiki or whatever the localizers believe is "correct", is that Yamato isn't a trans man and people are hugely misinterpreting the character and holding up the entirely wrong one as representation. But I'm sure this'll change nothing--this is a wiki, after all, where a not-insignificant portion of users have, for example, bought into recent attempts at 4Kids apologia without question. TheSwedishElf (talk) 15:06, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Chapter 1084 Color Spread

Hello everyone, with the upcoming release of 1084, it's obvious to me that people are going to want to discuss Yamato's gender as result of it. Wiki leadership is willing to allow it for a short time here on this talk page, and nowhere else on the wiki. There are a few things I'd like to clarify about how the discussion will proceed:

1. This discussion is only for new evidence after the June 2022 discussion shown above. Things like Yamato's Vivre Card, etc have already been talked about at length. Please read the older thread and archived tabs if you plan to discuss anything besides Ch. 1084.
2. As with any discussion on the wiki, anyone participating in this discussion must remain civil. To insult any other user, staff member, person, etc using any kind of language (with or without obscenities) will result in at least a 2 week wiki ban. This post will serve as everyone's final warning.
3. Anyone posting extreme transphobia will be instantly banned, and have their posts removed. Examples of that type of extreme transphobic content would be claiming trans identities don't exist, saying trans people are sick, etc.
4. This discussion cannot end in a poll, as that would violate Fandom's policies. Things will only change if a near unanimous majority, and Fandom staff agree to change the current status.

Once the chapter is officially released tomorrow, this talk page will be unlocked and then discussion can start. I will save my own opinions on it until that later time. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 14:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Talk page should be open to edit now.

Personally, I am not in favor of making any changes based on this color spread.

• It would be very unprecedented to make a change of this scale based on conclusions drawn from a color spread drawing. Perhaps if there was a caption saying something like "Women of Summer" there might have been more ground to stand on. But drawing hard conclusions based on color spreads is not something to be done lightly. In fact, we have prior examples to warn us against this. When the 1031 color spread came out, some fans began claiming it as "proof" that Zoro (and Bepo) held the title of First Mate. However, Oda would later clarify in the Vol. 102 SBS that he just drew the "No. 2s" of crews and not all of them held the title of First Mate, with Zoro being among that group. Perhaps we may be so lucky for him to revisit this spread in the SBS.
• It's not necessarily shocking that Yamato is perceived/referred to as a woman in certain instances, even if you 100% believe that Yamato is male at the end of the day. Kiku, who most can agree should be referred to as a woman, has still been referred to in a masculine manner when her biological sex comes up. Without making overstepped assertions about Japanese language & culture, it does seem clear that how they refer to transgender people is not necessarily as "progressive" as English, and more references tend to be made to original/biological sex than most of the current English LGBT lexicon is comfortable with. So Yamato being lumped in with women/on'na in a drawing is not necessarily a huge revelation regarding what Yamato ultimately considers his gender to be.
• Finally, a question: why should we consider this color spread to be solid proof Yamato is a woman, but we should not consider the bathhouse scene in the manga proper to be solid proof Yamato is a man?

As I noted in the first point, I'm definitely open to (and hoping for!) Oda explicitly revisiting this. But until then, there's just not enough foundation to indicate that current consensus is off base. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:53, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it works contextually like this: from Oda's perspective, he's drawing Yamato in that shot, not Kozuki Oden, Yamato believes their essentially Kozuki Oden, the male. Though Oda is not drawing Kozuki Oden, he's drawing Yamato for this shot with all the women present. So yes, Yamato is still male because they believe they're Kozuki Oden, but Oda is drawing Yamato if it makes any sense. GiverOfThePeace (talk)

A case that reminds me of this color spread is that one celebratory film "WE ARE ONE" uploaded on the official OP YT channel, which was tweeted about by the official @Eiichiro_Staff Twitter account. Said video is about female OP fans and female characters specifically, and prominently features Yamato as such. I would group this "new information" together with that older piece of info but would be hesitant to call it more solid "proof" than anything we've discussed before (since, while we know Oda hand-drew this color spread, he's also directly addressed a fan inference about a color spread before as @Kaido noted). Hence I agree that we should probably, at this point, simply wait/hope for Oda giving explicit clarification. Karama20 (talk) 17:26, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

May I chime in? Due to certain religious beliefs in Japan, the body and spirit are not considered always one and the same. Physically, Yamato is definitely female, unless things down below don't match up. But when she identifies herself as "he", she is saying her "soul" or ego is that of a male. This is a harder concept for a western prospect to understand. Its because a physical body is sometimes regarded as just a shell or "avatar" to house a spirit in. You can see this at play in certain parts of Shinto religion which certains on the "Kami". A object such as a toy can be the house and act as an avatar for a Kami "damashi" (which loosely translates to soul or spirit, but as someone once said thats not 100% true as its more like essence or force, but these make less sense from a western POV).

Either way, this is what Yamato is doing, especially worth noting that the arc is focused on old Japanese culture. A Japanese person would likely understand fully whats going on. And several people here could likely try and confirm what I'm saying is true, hopefully as well, if they know how the Shinto religion works. I've encountered this same issue in another fandom that I shalt not name, because when this was explained about piracy they got a bit snotty. Long story short, it was over piracy, Japan does have piracy but its not viewed the same because products stolen via piracy as seen at times as bad because people put a heart and soul into those products and by pirating you've essentially stolen part of that products soul. (Edit: while this note about piracy seems irrelevent, it is my attempt to explain how "spirit" and "Avatar" becomes a big deal in perspective).

If this is true and it is the case, then Yamato is not like the current issues going on in the western world over transgenderism and gender in general, its something very different entirely and the situation is not 100% the same. Its going to be complex to understand what exactly is going on here unless you can get into the correct mindset. In this case, Yamato is saying that while she was born female, she had to become spiritually male to get anywhere, and this will not be the same. For now, "male" is likely correct, but its an awkward situation to explain. all this to anyone ad should not be compared 100% the same as a western POV on the situation. But this creates issues because the true definition here doesn't fit a wiki category system as idyllically as it should be and I'd argue that even the definition of "male" grossly overlooks the actual explanation of the situation, if this is indeed the case.

This sort of thing is always, and always WILL be hard to explain, because unless you understand what is involved in Shinto religious stuff, its not going to be easy to understand. I've tried my best, regardless theres a LOT of shinto references in the arc overall that will go over most heads and I think this is one of them. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 18:09, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm in favor of changing back to female. I know many would say that actual manga events overweigh color spreads or other official media, and while I can agree with that, I would also like to point out that official media with explicit declarations trump over manga events that are open to speculations. I would also like to remind you folks that this wiki explicitly states that there is no room for speculations. The upheaval regarding Chapter 1052 is, in my eyes, based on speculations alone, even though other official media stated otherwise. I know the Vivre Card had already been discussed, but think about it this way: they would have changed it there too if Yamato had indeed been a male in the eyes of the officials. Furthermore, we have a case of an extreme fangirl who pretty much gave up on her personality to mimic someone she idolizes in a rather unhealthy manner.

As for solid proof, Chapter 1052 isn't solid proof because the reason for Yamato bathing with the men isn't stated explicitly. Other media had more explicit declarations, and explicit declarations trump over speculations like I had stated earlier. This color spread is an explicit declaration.

These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 20:20, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Except 1084's color spread makes no such explicit declaration. There is no mention of it being a woman-only group shot in the captions, and even setting aside Yamato, that wouldn't be an entirely accurate description of the color spread. Chapter 1052, however, is explicit. Nami suggests that she and Yamato take a bath together, but Yamato refuses, stating that there is no mixed bathing in the castle, and instead bathes with the other men. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 20:42, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, Yamato stated there is no mixed bathing because this is what Oden would have done, not herself had she not given up on her personality, and she's pretty much surrounded by people who don't want to bother with her and they're weaker than her, she can easily overpower anyone who'd want to stop her from bathing with the men. And I don't quite understand why you're saying the description of the color spread isn't accurate. "There are no mixed baths" is pretty much an empty slogan that Yamato uses as an excuse to live as Oden and not as herself. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 20:49, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

First time I've done this, so sorry if I mess something up. Angel's explanation above is something I hadn't heard before, and actually makes quite a bit of sense. I will however say that I'm not so sure it doesn't transfer to current western english as it is. Consider the definition of sex and gender, one is the physical description (ie body above), while the other is the role that was originally decided by society, but is now held in the hands of those who wish to have a certain identity different from the common beliefs (ie soul, as above). Therefore, it is actually realistic to refer to Yamato as he/him, or at the very least they/them. Even if you were to have, as we see above, a color spread stating "Women of One Piece" or something like that, that could still only be referring to the body, not the soul, which would possibly be how the vivre card case works. So I am in favor of not only not changing anything, but also using this explanation in the future to explain why it won't be changed until and unless Oda says something directly. KeA Bannings (talk) 22:12, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm still of the mind that she's a woman who identifies as Oden. This has been dug deep into the ground, but if Oden were a woman, she would identify as a woman. It's less "I am a man, and Oden was a man" but rather "I am Oden". She's essentially an extreme Oden cosplayer, and nothing about her has shown that she specifically wants to identify as male beyond "I wanna bathe with the boys".

This was part of my original post (which got scrubbed since I posted it before the chapter was officially out, oops), but at the end of the day, fan interpretation should take a backseat to word of Oda. There are basically three pieces of information that Oda put out there, regardless of what's come out of Yamato's mouth:

• Her intro card, which ID'd her as "Daughter of Kaidou"
• Her Vivre Card, which ID'd her as female
• Her inclusion in a spread that included only other female characters (and Zeus, but he's basically Nami's weapon so that's neither here nor there)

There's plenty of information in favor of either gender in other sources, but at the end of the day, I think what matters is Oda's interpretation. We might interpret her gender as one way, but if Oda interprets her as "a woman who believes she is Oden", then at the end of the day, that's the truth of it. The Pope 02:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Well then perhaps it should be put this way: "Yamato is a woman (sex) with the soul of Oden (gender) and since Oden was male, her pronouns are he/him." The idea here is that pronouns are a separate thing: they're based on gender, but gender, in our current society, is deliberately not binary! So you could totally (per se, remember this is Oda's story, doesn't necessarily need to be realistic) say his "gender" is Oden. Like I said above, all it really means is that no matter what new info comes out, so long as it isn't a direct statement from Oda or Yamato, we'll still keep with the decisions stated above, just honestly in order to have peace of mind and not deal with constantly shifting goalposts. Because again, even if there was a color spread called "Women of One Piece", and Yamato was on it, I still wouldn't consider that to be enough proof, considering what we've said above! Simply, because both are true! Yamato, unless he goes through surgery (Ivankov?), still has his sex as female. ...Almost makes me want to start calling him Yoden, and just use she/her with Yamato when we're talking with that context in mind. But I dunno. Think about it, I guess? KeA Bannings (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm seeing some comments on here spreading a very bad misconception about Yamato, which I see a lot especially in the One Piece subreddit. I really want to get it out of the way because it's a seriously poor reading. Yamato does not just "identify" as Oden. He identifies as Yamato. Frequently, from his first appearance with Luffy to his last appearance with Ryokugyu, Yamato introduces himself as Yamato, the son of Kaido. This idea that Yamato literally believes he's Oden is honestly poisoning a lot of discussion about the character, because it's based on nothing. Yamato knows he is not Oden, and he has no delusions that he is anybody except for Yamato. I want to stress this, because I think the misconception is affecting the way people talk about him. Even Chapter 994 is titled "My Other Name is Yamato". Whether Yamato is a man or a woman, there is one thing that cannot be disputed: Yamato identifies as Yamato.
Having said that, our canon guildelines state that the manga story takes precedence over other material, such as color spreads. As previously discussed at length, Yamato's gender identity can be observed independent from his admiration for Oden. The color spread is not more important than Yamato's own stated identity. Whether or not you think Yamato identifies as a man because Oden was a man, that does not change the fact that Yamato identifies as a man (who, I repeat, is named Yamato). His inclusion in the lady colorspread does not change this, and it would go against our canon policy to make it so. Even without considering our policy, the colorspread is still weaker evidence than the notably similar bathhouse scene. uknownada ^Talk 05:07, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree with The Pope. I disagree with Uknownada, Yamato's identification as a male is NOT independent from her identification as Oden. If Oden had been a woman, this whole controversy wouldn't have even been dreamed of. Even if you see the color spread as weaker evidence, official statements like the introduction box or the Vivre Card should not be seen as weaker evidence. They are pretty much the words of Oda himself, and Oda even made the color spread, he knows better than anyone of us. Plus, saying our comments are "spreading a very bad misconception about Yamato" and "it's a seriously poor reading" is very judgemental. Plus, "My Other Name Is Yamato" could pretty much also be interpreted that "Yamato" is merely a subsidiary because Yamato literally thinks she's Oden. In one of the chapters she even asked "Were you talking about me?" (a comment which, in my eyes, deserves a facepalm).

Furthermore, Yamato's lack of personality also stems from Kaido's physical abuse towards her, causing her to admire Oden even more and to further self-confirm that she as herself is worthless. So Kaido not only abused his own daughter physically, but psychologically as well. He calls her his "son" not because of her admiration for Oden, this wouldn't make sense. Kaido obviously has his own agenda, and historically speaking, there were never any women shoguns.

As for KeaBanning's comment, it doesn't have to transfer into the Western English as it is, because we are talking about a Japanese series here, and I personally think we should go with their standards. I would also like to point out that the Fandom staff did not handle the matter well, because they based their decision on localized material alone.

In fact, I personally think there is more proof of Yamato being a female rather than male. Let's play a little game, a game that counts all the statements that claim Yamato is either female or male and see if they're facts or speculations. Each fact adds one point, but speculations don't. So, let's begin:

1. A woman is an adult human female. Yamato is a human, she's an adult, and she was born a female. So Yamato answers that definition. FACT. (Score 1 for Female)

2. Yamato claims she became a man. FACT. (Female 1, Male 1)

3. Yamato didn't actually become a man. FACT. (Female 2, Male 1)

4. Yamato identifies as a male because of Oden. SPECULATION (No points added).

5. Yamato doesn't even try to look like a man. FACT. (Female 3, Male 1)

6. Oda keeps emphasizing that Yamato is a woman. FACT. (Female 4, Male 1)

7. Oda explicitly stated Yamato is a female in the introduction box (Kaido's daughter). FACT. (Female 5, Male 1)

8. The Vivre Card magazine, which is an official source, explicitly states Yamato is a female. FACT. (Female 6, Male 1)

9. Yamato uses male pronouns like "boku" and such. FACT. (Female, 6 Male 2)

10. But Big Mom also uses such pronouns, and she aims to be King of the Pirates (and not Queen), and she does not identify as a male. FACT. (Female 7, Male 2)

11. Yamato uses pronouns like "boku" because sometimes females do that as a tomboyish trait. SPECULATION.

12. A fan commented on Yamato's sideboob and asked how it'd be if it were personified, thus acknowledging Yamato's feminine anatomy. FACT. (Female, 8 Male 2)

13. Yamato was referred to as "Oni Princess". FACT. (Female 9, Male 2)

14. Yamato is referred to as Kaido's son by many characters, including Kaido himself as well as Yamato herself. FACT. (Female 9, Male 3)

15. Kaido refers to Yamato as his son because he respects her decision. SPECULATION (which makes no sense because Oden was his sworn enemy, and Yamato idolizes him).

16. Kaido refers to Yamato as his son because he's in denial he has a daughter, and he does it for his own agenda. SPECULATION (which makes more sense than the previous statement).

17. Yamato bathed with the men. FACT. (Female 9, Male 4).

18. Yamato bathed with the men because she identifies as a male. SPECULATION.

19. Yamato bathed with the men because she identifies as Oden, and this is what Oden would have done. SPECULATION.

20. The bathing scene contributed nothing to the plot. FACT (that adds no points to either side).

21. Yamato was drawn by Oda with many female characters in the most recent color spread. FACT (Female 10, Male 4)

That's pretty much 10 for female in comparison to 4 for male. This is my conclusion.

These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 05:33, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit: I also want to point out that I have no offensive intentions with my list, or anything else I had written for that matter. The list I made was written in a purely objective perspective, thus separating facts and speculations and giving them their own clauses. That's all.

These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 05:43, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I do certainly agree that using the western perspective here to begin with brings in some important issues, but really a point here is that there's two arguments: How Yamato should be perceived in JP (which would practically be how Oda sees him), and how Yamato should be perceived in the west. The first one should take priority, the only reason it hasn't is because this is a touchy subject, and I have seen a few people from the LGBT community saying that Yamato needs to be seen in a certain way because otherwise (and I'm probably misquoting here, but it's important to mention) "It would put a bad light on such situations", I think is the correct wording here. Now to break that down, all uses of pronouns or localizations regarding the beliefs surrounding Yamato lie directly in the second path, because that is a perception which is only required by the west. As stated above by Angel, we should never have been looking at it like that to begin with, but due to the manga being localized, that was an impossibility. We can't get around the use of pronouns and the controversy surrounding it, because the localization already forced that issue to front and center with effectively no other options.

On a separate note, Uknownada, the common belief held is that Yamato identifies as both, and yet somehow neither. The reason for this being, obviously, that we had conflicting information show up on multiple occasions from Yamato himself and other sources. Yamato's exact words in the past were "Well, Oden was a man, so I chose to be a man too!" (This is, as far as is known, fully accurate in JP as well.) One cannot be unlinked from the other, because the very definition of Yamato as Oden, is Oden as a man. However, Yamato still uses Kaido's style of attacking, with a kanabo, as well as using Eight Trigrams (Raimei Hakkei). And, as you mentioned, he also directly states "My other name is Yamato" with no "daughter of Kaido" or "son of Kaido" attached to it (which would make sense when you consider that he doesn't really want to accept being the son or daughter of Kaido to begin with). All in all, it's a bit of a confusing mess. To say that Yamato only identifies as one or the other would actually be directly false, because he clearly identifies as both! So what is this supposed to mean? In the end, we come right back to the start: Fandom staff decided to step in on a conversation that can't be de-escalated, thanks to a localization existing, and everyone settled on he/him for lack of better choice. Up until the point where that choice becomes available (ie, when Oda decides to clarify, or Yamato directly states something that would contradict anything of what we know so far), we are currently stuck with the above choice. It truthfully does not matter what belief you or anyone else here may hold, because it isn't and will not be a subject that can be de-escalated easily, even IF Oda does indeed say something. In the end, Yamato is an amazing character, regardless of how we may need to refer to him in english, and that's all I really care about. KeA Bannings (talk) 08:28, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I personally think that how Yamato should be perceived in Japan trumps the Western perception. We are talking about a Japanese series after all, including the pronouns issue. That being said, the Japanese perception should trump the LGBT perception of Yamato as well. Furthermore, like I said earlier, the decision for settling for the male option was done based on speculations influenced by the Western perceptions, and the staff's decision ignored official Japanese sources outside the manga, plus it was based on the decision of people who already hold a certain view on how things should be seen regarding Yamato, and that this certain view should outweigh the Japanese view on the character. In addition, things like the introduction box, color spreads, and other official sources outside the manga should be seen as the word of the creator, eventually he is in charge of everything and he acts as the all-knowing narrator when it comes to introduction boxes and narrator texts. Oda never said "Yamato is a man", and the Vivre Card didn't change Yamato's gender. As for "a perception which is only required by the west", the Japanese perception should outweigh this because this is still a Japanese series.

Moreover, I digress, but I cannot say Yamato is an amazing character. On the contrary, I think Oda made a very dangerous move when creating that character because of her overall personality and the controversy surrounding her.

These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 09:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm noticing an awful lot of comments on here that don't have much to do with the new color spread but just talking about Yamato overall. We are not rehashing the whole evidence over and over again. Taking just this new color spread into consideration, I don't think that this is anything new that would warrant a change to Yamato's page since the Gender section already covers the contradictory information that has been given outside of the main story. Damage3245 (talk) 09:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to note that people should really stop making the disingenuous argument that "Yamato only identifies as a man because he's roleplaying as Oden" and "If Oden was a woman, then Yamato would identify as a woman too." They're hollow, worthless statements. The first one is easily dismissed by the fact that Yamato refers themselves as Kaido's son. Is Oden actually Kaido's son? No, obviously not. So Yamato is saying that Yamato is Kaido's son. This is an undeniable example of Yamato expressing a desire to identify as male outside of being Oden. And regarding the whole "If Oden was X then Yamato would be X"... Yes, so what? If that was the case, then we'd simply update Yamato's page accordingly. Getting into speculation of "How would Yamato act differently if something else was different" is for the realm of fanfiction, not this Wiki. People should drop these speculative arguments if they wish to be taken seriously here. Damage3245 (talk) 10:09, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

These statements are not hollow or worthless. It is very judgemental to say such a thing. If they've been said, people had their reasons to say them. As for "This is an undeniable example of Yamato expressing a desire to identify as male outside of being Oden", this is also inaccurate. Another possibility that she says that is because this is what Kaido had pumped into her head since day zero. He too desired to break Yamato's will and use her for his own plans, and even though he failed, Yamato is still psychologically damaged and cannot introduce herself primarily otherwise.

These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 10:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I am judging those arguments as hollow. Some of them come dangerously close to offensive levels of arguing such as "This character is only identifying as male because they were psychologically abused." I'm pretty sure you can understand why we would not think that is a good argument to make if it hasn't been explicitly stated in the manga. Also it's not our business to be judging how or why Yamato is the way that he is; all that matters is whether or not Yamato identifies as male. Not the underlying cause. Damage3245 (talk) 11:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I probably digressed, but I was only stating my opinion on the matter without trying to sound offensive. I do agree we should all take things in proportions, we're only talking about a fictional character after all. I won't use such statements any longer, but I still stand my ground and don't think Yamato actually identifies as a male. What I do want to add is that according to a poll I saw in this wikia (which has been removed by the staff), the vast majority of the voters voted for female. If you say this is irrelevant, I'll leave it alone. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 11:17, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Putting forth that the reason for a character latching onto the only positive role model in their life and developing an unhealthy obsession with "Becoming" them is the documented abuse by a parental figure and complete isolation from anyone but him and his lackeys, lasting for close to 30 years, isn't really Bigotry. Saying that all gender nonconforming people are the result of such abuse definitely is, but sometimes it really is just a really screwed up background, especially when said person is emotionally immature, displays erratic and unstable behavior, and is in general not the most stable individual. DarkinBladeGaming (talk) 00:08, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I was talking specifically about Yamato, not about real people. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 05:39, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Damage, I did say above already that I believed we shouldn't have brought up the color spread to begin with, because nothing will change. Whatever you believe, until Oda says something, we. are. stuck. The color spread won't change things, other characters won't change things, specifically because you need to be careful, Yamato needs to define themselves, not other characters defining them. (Which mind you is also why Oni Princess and other such titles may not necessarily matter.) Separately however, Damage, the exact argument is not necessarily discounting Yamato as a male: Yamato identifies as Oden, therefore he identifies as male. Saying Yamato does NOT identify as Oden, would bring the same issue as saying "Yamato only identifies etc". However, it is correct that if Oden was a woman, Yamato would probably identify as a woman too, but that is neither here nor there, because Oden was male. So none of this matters. As for your statement about identification as male outside of being Oden, I feel more that this is "Since Oden was male, I (as in Yamato) am also male". This is still being placed in context of Oden, not Yamato. You'll probably still disagree, but like I said a second ago, I don't believe this discussion should've been reopened to begin with, because there's no way a color spread is changing anything. KeA Bannings (talk) 17:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if the argument of "Yamato calls himself 'Kaidou's son' so he's not thinking about Oden" holds any weight, cause Yamato also considers himself "Momonosuke's father" KingTempest16 (talk) 05:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't matter what Yamato's reasoning is for identifying as a man. There are tons of people who express their gender identity inspired by specific people anyways, even among cis people. I don't understand how Yamato's admiration for Oden would somehow delegitimize his stated gender identity, when in reality it would explain it. "Yamato identifies as a man because he likes Oden" is admitting that he identifies as a man. Yamato's gender identity is nuanced enough that it's both inspired by Oden and exists outside of Oden, as has been pointed out numerous times. But I'm digressing again. It's easy to get distracted from the topic of the thread, but I guess that just shows how weak it is. To put it simply, the color spread is not strong enough evidence for this. Until the story develops further or Oda makes an explicit comment, Yamato's gender identity is clear and provable.
And by the way, since you mentioned a poll Piposh. I bet if you polled the fanbase on whether or not Zoro is first mate, an overwhelming amount would say yes. Hell, I bet if Oda came out and said "Yamato is a man", the poll would still favor him being a woman. uknownada ^Talk 04:36, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with you regarding the poll thing. First, Zoro being the first mate has already been debunked, so this isn't relevant. Second, I highly doubt Oda would come out and say "Yamato is a man". Third, there is a reason why the poll would favor Yamato being a woman, because the Western view of gender identity and the Japanese view of Yamato's identity clash with each other too greatly to the point of creating this controversy. This is why I said that creating this character was a dangerous move by Oda. I still think the Japanese view trumps the Western view, because this is still a Japanese series, regardless of where you live. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 05:32, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The point is that many fans can be wrong. You do know most fans still think Zoro is first mate, right? It doesn't matter if it's been debunked. Heck, I'd say the idea that Yamato is a woman has been debunked, but here we are. The poll is irrelevant and dumb. uknownada ^Talk 11:00, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The idea of Yamato being a woman has most certainly not been debunked. Otherwise this controversy wouldn't have been dreamed of. But overall I think you and I can agree to disagree. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 11:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I’d like to reiterate that discussion is supposed to be based around Ch. 1084. It is not for “keeping score” of the full debate. It seems to me that this is not a conclusive majority here, so we are likely moving towards closing this discussion in a few days after giving time for other users who haven’t chimed in yet to join.

As far as my view on this color spread, there’s nothing to confirm that every character shown is supposed to be seen as a woman. It could easily be just a bunch of characters Oda thinks look good together. I think Zeus’ presence further debunks the interpretation of this being an all-girls color spread. I see this color spread as confirmation of absolutely nothing.

On the wider issue of Yamato’s gender, while I still think further clarity/confirmation is required to truly end this debate once and for all, I am more confident than ever that the wiki’s current stance is the correct stance to have in this moment. The bathhouse scene including Yamato’s stated discomfort as being categorized/seen as a woman is a far more significant piece of than I initially thought when that chapter came out. I would like to thank Fandom staff for explaining that in the first debate because I think their outside the wiki perspective allowed them to see that more clearly than many editors, myself included. I think the only type of thing that could surpass that would be something in either the manga or an SBS that directly addresses the ambiguity of the situation.

I think having this discussion now even if it’s obvious to many that it likely won’t change anything is healthy for wiki because we can have the discussion in this one place, and disallow the toxic debate in other areas of the wiki like the discord and discussions. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 15:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

"The bathhouse scene including Yamato’s stated discomfort as being categorized/seen as a woman"

...What?

Literally all she says is "There are no mixed baths so I'm good". That's it. Any further interpretation in that regard is your own headcanon. The Pope 17:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

We've been over this man, come on. You don't need to be willfully obtuse.
I suppose it's a good thing that people had another chance to give their thoughts, even if we ultimately knew nothing would change. In the end, the manga story trumps all. I do wanna thank Angel specifically for their interesting take on the matter. It's good to learn things. Plus if anything, this cover can have a nice place on the Mythbusters page! uknownada ^Talk 20:41, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Was about to be done with this conversation, but... is that being obtuse? Nothing in that scene showed Yamato being "uncomfortable". All we saw was Yamato going (per the interpretation now accepted) "[I have defined myself as male, therefore] I will go in the men's bath since there's no mixed bathing." This doesn't change anything, but defining it as discomfort to begin with IS a mistake. Yamato is not, at least as far as we've seen, uncomfortable with defining themselves as male or female. He's simply made a choice, and stuck to that choice. (And before anyone goes "It's not a choice!", defining yourself as X or Y is indeed a choice, because Yamato definitely had other choices available: see Kaido's son. Technically defined as both now, but that's besides the point. It's not all or nothing here.) KeA Bannings (talk) 21:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit: So... thought about it for five minutes, and I think I'm beginning to see where the error comes up. ...From what it seems, the general agreement is that Yamato has gender dysphoria, which would explain the discomfort comments. However, I'm pretty sure gender dysphoria is not the only way of being trans! In this case, it isn't about "Discomfort with being female, therefore I am male", it's "Oden was a male, and therefore even though I was born a female, I am choosing to define myself as male." This isn't really an important distinction, because Yamato is still trans! However, it is a different way of looking at things, and one that most certainly should not be discounted out of hand. KeA Bannings (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

First I want to clarify something since reading is not the same as hearing someone talk. I wrote this very respectfully with no intention to offend so please don't read it with an aggressive tone in mind. So now the comment.

I still don't understand how the bath scene is an indisputable confirmation of Yamato's gender. How bathing with other men makes you one? It doesn't make sense to me. If you are a woman or a man who doesn't mind being seen naked the separated baths means nothing to you. And I think this fits perfectly for Luffy and Yamato because they were naked in front of the opposite sex and they didn't care at all. So in their case they could  go to the men's bath, women's bath or mixed bath for them they are just baths and that's it.

Also Luffy and Yamato are really similar in how they want to be loud, break stuff and have fun that's why for me was totally logical for her to go and hang out with the boys because that's her personality and that has nothing to do with gender stuff.

I mean, come on do you really imagine Yamato having a quit talk with the girls? Instead of being with the boys like " HEY LUFFY DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN WE COMBINED TECHNIQUES AGAINST KAIDO THAT WAS AWESOME!!!" or something like that. I mean, it's not impossible for that to actually happen but the balance has more weight on one side.

Also imagine that Oda didn't change Yamato's character introduction box at the beginning of the volumes where it says "Kaido's daughter" because he was waiting for the bath scene to happen for the grand reveal of Yamato's gender. I want to let you know that in volume 104 where the bath scene happens (chapter 1052) you can still read "Kaido's daughter" but you wouldn't spoil that at the beginning of the volume so this doesn't count. Well in volume 105 you can still read "Kaido's daughter" and you can't say that Oda is being lazy because that is just changing the kanji 娘 (daughter) to 息子 (son).

For Kaido calling Yamato son you just need to read the first 3 pages of the first chapter of Versailles no Bara. You can see that Oda took inspiration from that manga and Yamato is clearly his version of Oscar. Also do you remember Oda's comment on WSJ issue #28 (the One Piece chapter of that issue is 945 if you are curious)that was released on June 10, 2019? The comment is "I finished reading Glass Mask, so now I'm reading Rose of Versailles. Oscar was a woman?!". And I'm not in the mind of Oda but I think that he wanted us to have his same reaction but with the reveal of Yamato. The first time we knew that Kaido had a "son" was at the end of 977 and at the end of 984 we were like "All this time Yamato was a woman?!"

For Yamato's line "Kouzuki Oden was a man, right? So I became a man, too!!"  Is kind of sad to be honest if like she couldn't be free like Oden, achieve what Oden did or inherit his will because she is a woman. So yeah is kinda sad for her to be like "I'm Oden I'm Oden. Momonosuke is my son". Even her last line was "You talking about me?" When Momo was saying that he will surpass Oden one day. I hope she realizes that and stop the "I'm Oden" thing but that probably won't happen because is one of her character traits. The next time we see her she's going to say something like "Son shoot your Boro Breath to Mary Geoise" and Momo saying "I'm not your son!"

For the color spread what can I tell you I just see all the ladies there and please don't come with the "then Zeus is also a woman?"  The main focus of the color spread is the ladies and I don't think Oda would disrespect one of his characters or let anyone do it. Imagine that they make a "ONE PIECE MANLY TESTOSTERONE COLLECTION" and they put Kiku there, Oda would be like "wtf? she is a woman so put her with the other ladies" and they already did a collection of goods and figures where the theme is female characters and Yamato and Kiku are both there.

Here is the link:

https://1kuji.com/products/onep70

I hope I didn't have spelling mistakes since English is not my main language.

Goodbye

Honestly, between merch and Oda's own statements, I get the impression that Japan's (and Oda's) perception of all of this is "Yeah Yamato's a woman, she just believes she's Oden, why are you being weird about this?", and it's only the west that's getting our knickers in a knot over her gender. I'm not saying Japan's view is more or less politically correct (I'm all for calling characters by their preferred gender, again, Kiku's a good step forward), but I feel like the West has severely overthought all of this. The Pope 03:43, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

That's another massive misconception. Oda has NOT made any statements on this issue. That's the problem. All we can go off of is what he's written in the manga, which can be interpreted either way. What you say also feeds into the myth that Oda writes the Vivre Cards or watches closely for every detail, which has also been disputed (source: Greg Werner, who works on the cards). I get that you're unhappy with our decision, but you don't have to bring untruthful things here just so you can keep pretending that our decision is based on nothing. uknownada ^Talk 16:25, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I mean, if Oda doesn't write the Vivre cards, who does? Also, and to bring it back to the central point, featuring Yamato on a cover full of only women is a "statement" from Oda. The Pope 18:17, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Somebody posted a link that supposedly showed that all the vivre card information comes from Oda himself in one of the previous Yamato discussions. It's irrelevant anyway since this is supposed to be about the cover page ONLY. So I'll say based off that the article should be edited back to how it was. Also this does not belong on the Mythbusters page whatsoever. SeaTerror (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

The color spread, especially when correlated with other data, should be the final nail in the coffin for the "Yamato is a him" argument. Yamato is a woman, otherwise Yamato would not be on the woman-only color spread created by the mangaka himself. Yulia253 (talk) 21:22, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the page should switch back to she, but I do see the points for remaining how it is. Ultimately it does require a lot of explaining and verbal gymnastics to explain why there are 13 girls and 1 guy if the current status is maintained. I for one never saw the bath scene as the checkmate its presented as, since its established that Yamato models everything they do off of Oden. However, this basically just marks another tick in the laundry list of reasons why they are or aren't female, instead of closing the book. Staying how it is would probably be for the best until something definitive comes out of the Manga or Oda. At this point its pretty much guaranteed that Yamato is going to pop up again in some shape or form, otherwise why wouldn't Oda have settled this a while ago, if doing so didn't constitute a spoiler for character development. I will reiterate from my previous statement on this page that The page shouldn't have gender related tags. This is a very complicated issue and this color spread is just more evidence of that. Putting "Male" and "Transgender" on the tags is giving the impression that its the correct viewpoint for the character, when its ambiguous enough that an entire section of the page is dedicated to addressing it. (And just to get that out of the way, a page having no gender related tags if their gender is ambiguous is fine. Just Look at Imu's page). DarkinBladeGaming (talk) 00:41, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Someone at Shueisha has said that Oda supervises the Vivre Cards (note that's not the same thing as writing them), but Greg Werner, who also works at Shueisha, has clarified Oda's role a little more. This doesn't confirm nor deconfirm the validity of Vivre Card info, but it is worth pointing out that this means the information is not FROM Oda himself. That's the misconception I wanted to clarify.
Also, Pope I just find your last comment funny. Like, Yamato directly stating the baths don't mix genders? "Any interpretation is headcanon." Oda drawing a picture with no words? Obviously, a clear statement. lmao, wat? C'mon!uknownada ^Talk 00:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

[1] SeaTerror (talk) 03:40, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

First-time commenter, long-time reader, if I'm fudging it up kindly forgive me.
Re: Yamato's gender vs. Yamato's sex these talk pages have often felt like watching a lot of people bickering a complex topic with a weak grasp of the subject matter and have been using that weak grasp as an excuse to monopolize the conversation while hiding their arguments behind inaccurate phrasing and outright bad terminology. It makes it even more difficult to discuss these without a terminological baseline.
For clarity and certainty, here's the tl;dr of why reading this conversation has been frustrating:
When discussing pronouns the use of the term "female" and "male" has been used almost exclusively. At this point you're conflating a sociological issue with a biological issue through terminology, though the two have some passing and occasional correlation, the insistence of using these terms but calling it a "gender discussion" makes it difficult at the best of times. While Yamato is clearly AFAB (Assigned Female at Birth) the discussion gets muddied on whether Yamato identifies as a "Man" (read: NOT Male, a masculine person) or a "Woman" (read: NOT Female, a feminine person).
Since the issue is pertaining to Yamato's identity, the phrases "man" and "woman" should probably be what's relevant, the insistence of the use of "male" and "female" reads as intentionally trying to obscure what the argument is, and confusing people who are English as a Second Language, or are simply unaware of the actual issue's nuances in an attempt to bring others to their side. This was a big issue in the Vivre Card part of this discussion.
Regarding the cover, there's no indication that this is a "woman-only" spread, and very well could be a "female-only" spread due to Kikunojo's remarked absence, as much as it could have no correlation to gender or sex and could be remarked as "one of those funny Oda moments" where he drew a group of characters who were positively stacked (though this argument admittedly is weak since he included children in the shot too).

The fact of the matter is, though, that this cover doesn't seem to create any precedent to change anything, however, as the fact is nothing has changed regarding YAMATO'S presentation, preference for which restroom (or rather bathing facility) that he uses, or "pronouns" in terms of referring to himself as "son of Kaido" (something that Oden specifically was not). The FANDOM policy regards respecting the identity of a party, and not cross-analyzing their specific identity to determine if it's strictly accurate in your world view as to whether that identity is wholly accurate to how they're presenting. If the character is referring to themselves using masculine monikers in 日本語, 自 when referring to themselves, and chooses to pursue becoming a man as a component of transitioning their identity to Oden (a man), then in English that character is more than likely to use he/him pronouns (substantiated by official and licensed material in English) in equivalent speech. At the end of the day, it would be about respecting pronouns and presentation, not trying to retroactively prove that you aren't gay for liking Yamato's pillows.

The spread certainly injects some frustrating ambiguity (though nothing so damming that I'm going to change off of referring to Yamato with he/him on this end) into the situation, just as much as previous arguments have been made contrary, it is not firm and within the writing enough to constitute contradicting existing policy from the host about respecting someone's pronouns, and isn't even a substantial enough argument in a casual setting either. Maddwaffles (talk) 4:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Well said. uknownada ^Talk 05:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

So you're going to ignore that link? Oda's actual editor would know far more than Greg. SeaTerror (talk) 06:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

So if Vivre Card information is indeed verified to be straight from Oda, then...shouldn't that be the final nail in the coffin, then? The color spread seems more like just further verification, if anything; in the very least, it's far more validating evidence from Oda than Yamato saying "there's no mixed baths so I'll bathe with the boys". I'm of the mind that it should've stayed female to begin with (and the conversation was going in that direction until some Fandom mod came down from on high and said "he's a man, any statement to the contrary is transphobic and you'll get banned"), and this is just further evidence that the switch was incorrect to begin with. The Pope 07:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree with The Pope. And like I said earlier, the Fandom's decision was based on localized material only (translations and subtitles from the anime). Furthermore, Yamato bathed with the men because this is what Oden would have done. In addition, while Oda is indeed in charge of the bathing scene, he is also in charge of the color spread, which in this case, is indeed female-exclusive (Zeus doesn't count because he's literally Nami's subsidiary, so using him as a counterargument is not productive). Moreover, like I said earlier, explicit declarations like the Vivre Card trump manga scenes that are open to speculations (and no, Yamato's statement that there are no mixed baths is not an explicit statement because of her Oden complex), and I would once again like to note that this wikia explicitly states that there is no room for speculations. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 07:32, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

"So if Vivre Card information is indeed verified straight from oda, then... shouldn't that be the final nail in the coffin, then?" No, and this is one of the frustrating things that people treat about the conversation is that the conflation to sex and gender occurs mostly here. The fact is that, by your and people with your position's own admission, the Japanese language isn't especially precise when discussing such things, particularly making a distinct line between the biological situation of a character and their social one.
"the conversation was going in that direction" In the observed rule-breaking "poll" further up this page that was certainly not the case, it was 9 and 3. But regardless of what it is, sociological facts are not a matter of democracy to begin with.
"There's no mixed baths so I'll bathe with the boys." Yes, because it's what Oden would do. Yamato wants to BE Oden. Oden is a man, therefore Yamato wants to be a man, the desire to be a man is sufficient to mark someone as a transman, and use he/him pronouns, thank you for once again making the argument FOR your own opposition.
And the FANDOM mod making his ruling is to make sure the wiki is compliant, and he further clarified the ambiguous statement, I'm not at all sorry that you can't misgender people because you fail to grasp the nuance of the situation, but I do find your misery in it funny.
"And like I said earlier, the Fandom's decision was based on localized material only (translations and subtitles from the anime)" His position still comes from an official source, and is thereby more informed than yours, which comes from the biases and interpretations of fan-subbers. Take it up with the people who actually translate the Viz release, I'm sure they're on Twitter. The situation is that even the "Zolo" argument is weak seeing as most justifications presented for it are functional over translation error, seeing as L and R can both be read in similar fashions.
"Which in this case, is indeed female-exclusive" Yes FEMALE exclusive, biologically, you see where you're hiding your argument in a cowardly fashion? Yamato is a MAN and a FEMALE, he is a transman, they are broadly female.
"and no, Yamato's statement that there are no mixed baths is not an explicit statement because of her Oden complex" Actually it is pretty explicit, because what is not one of the key Oden things to do but to be a man? He's a very masculine guy, and in pursuit of that, Yamato presents masculinely like a MAN does.
"and I would once again like to note that this wikia explicitly states that there is no room for speculations." Cousin, you're the one speculating, the official material wrote it on the wall.
These arguments are tired and repeated as if they're some damming piece of evidence that defeats all counterpoint, but the fact is they've been repeatedly addressed, and you've given no actual support for this besides "I think this way". No wonder the Fandom mod was unconvinced by your arguments, they aren't good, or seem to be informed in any kind of fact, only your feelings.
Maddwaffles (talk) 8:25, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Cousin? First off, I am NOT your cousin. Second, "cowardly fashion"? That is offensive, and I shall not tolerate this. I am open for civilized discussions, but I shall not tolerate insults, especially from someone who's barely the same generation as I am. Besides, how am I speculating when you yourself say that official material wrote it on the wall? The Vivre Card is official material as well, so thanks a lot for further unintentionally supporting my statement as well. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 08:32, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

You're reading too hard into it, it's a cultural thing, people of my culture refer to any peer as cousin, and any elder as uncle or auntie. That aside, if you don't care for the reception to your arguments, then don't make them in such a way, it's that simple. And yes, the official translation put it on the wall, the Vivre cards are official material but since there's no english translation you are SPECULATING on the intent of the data.

Maddwaffles (talk) 8:47, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Reading too hard into it? Are you kidding me? You outright hinted I'm a coward, and this is disrespectful and offensive, and I shall not tolerate any excuse for such a patronizing statement. Furthermore, "if you don't care for the reception to your arguments, then don't make them in such a way" it is not of your place to educate me. The official translation still does not trump the original Japanese, so there's nothing to speculate. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 08:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I didn't imply it, I stated it, your argument is a cowardly one. It's not me being disrespectful, it is me pointing out a quality of the argument that you make. And yet again, it seems that you're defaulting to the wounded cry of someone who doesn't understand Japanese, since you're limping on it like a broken leg, because unless you're a translator yourself, you are SPECULATING based on the words of other translators. Official trumps scanlators. Especially scanlators with an agenda.

Maddwaffles (talk) 9:00, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Except that you ARE being disrespectful. Disrespectful and patronizing, using words like "wounded cry" and "broken leg". It seems like this is all you do because I don't agree with you. So unless you sincerely apologize and take back your insulting and patronizing behavior and statements, I refuse to continue talking to you. Like I said, I am open for civilized discussions, but I refuse to tolerate insults and patronizations, especially from people who are barely the same generation as I am.

And for the record, the original Japanese trumps both scanlators and official translations. Also, "As with any discussion on the wiki, anyone participating in this discussion must remain civil. To insult any other user, staff member, person, etc using any kind of language (with or without obscenities) will result in at least a 2 week wiki ban. This post will serve as everyone's final warning." Rules, not my words. These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 09:06, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you're offended by the reception of your words, but it doesn't change them, and what they are. And in either case, you don't seem to speak Japanese, and have failed to grasp the nuances of the situation anyhow. That's your problem, not everyone else's.

Maddwaffles (talk) 9:11, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm done with you. If you're continuing with your disrespectful behavior and looking down on me because I allegedly fail to grasp the nuances of the situation or because I don't agree with you, then I am done wasting my time on you. Leave me alone, and cease speaking to me again. Farewell, "cousin". These Devil Fruits are making me thirsty! Piposh D. Hezi 09:18, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

We shouldn't set a precedent of basing decisions (especially of this magnitude) on cover artwork, so nothing has changed. A lot of this "discussion" is incredibly offensive, even it wasn't intended to be. It also relitigates old evidence which is not the point. If the talk page will continue to be an argument between two users, we can just close it and call it a day.Montblanc Noland :: Talk 12:08, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Both Madwaffles and Piposh D Hezi have been blocked for their insulting and antagonistic behavior towards each other. Please remember that all users should be civil with each other in this discussion. Trying to put words into the mouths of others is almost always an act of escalation, and I would encourage users to avoid such strategies in their arguments. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 18:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

So we're right back where we started: Waiting for Oda to make a statement or Yamato to get character development that clears things up, while this just gets loaded into one of the groups of evidence that one side insists is proof and the other side insists is misinterpreted/irrelevant. DarkinBladeGaming (talk) 18:20, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I doubt I can add anything to this discussion that hasn't been said already. But I would like to say that I would find it strange if Oda put a single male character in an otherwise all female color spread. That feels like it would contrast the whole theme of the picture. I am in favor of changing Yamato to female.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 18:56, 25 May 2023 (UTC))

Not continuing the above argument, but I will make a small statement here for the possible removal of confusion, in case anyone was, over the statements about official translation. Official translations (ie, ones done for payment, using a license) are indeed generally more accurate than fan translations, simply due to payment allowing the person in question to put proper effort into making sure they do their job. There are of course fan translators who will be just as accurate, but they are the exception, not the rule. However! Unless, and only if the translator is able to be in contact with the original author during translation, any ambiguous/vague sections from the original language, that were translated as an absolute (whether in error, or simply due to speculation on the part of the translator), can only be considered absolute, if indeed the translator is in contact with the author. If they are not in contact, and/or it has not been determined if they are (general rule is they are not), even the official translations can still be considered as partly speculative, since it is entirely up to their own interpretation. I am unclear whether One Piece is in the former or latter category, but general rule of thumb is that if something is vague or up for speculation in the original language (in this case japanese), the translation is still up to the same speculation, regardless of how they chose to translate it. This has no bearing on the current discussion, for reasons stated above, I'm simply stating it for the understanding of all involved (and mind you, there are a fair few translators who disagree with me, this is an argument that has been going on for actually over a thousand years, translation accuracy above all, as opposed to a translation which focuses on making it sounds beautiful/clean. The second category is a localization, which is the category One Piece currently fits into. There are benefits to both sides, but the best approach is one that combines both. However, very few translators are capable of this, and therefore, the cases where strange translations occur happen fairly often.) KeA Bannings (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

"Waiting for Oda to make a statement." That is what the color spread is. A lot of Westerners seem to be projecting their beliefs onto the issue, but the author himself has provided an unambiguous graphical statement for us. Even if you say, "Well it's not THAT clear," it's a lot more clear than the alternative theories, especially when connected with other data we have. To say otherwise depends on extremely questionable assumptions being smuggled into the discussion with some convoluted pretzel logic and is therefore extremely tenuous compared to the simple evidence of the color spread from the author. It seems the the most reasonable thing is to change it back to "she" and wait for a statement from Oda that would support "he," not the other way around. Yulia253 (talk) 20:33, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

If the color spread is a statement, so is the bathhouse and the multiple times Yamato bluntly says what he is. This single graphical statement does not trump his own written dialogue, sorry.uknownada ^Talk 21:49, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

What would the information from "We Are One" entail on Yamato's behalf? KingTempest16 (talk) 23:29, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

"single graphical statement does not trump his own written dialogue" -- you mean translated dialogue interpreted through your peculiar lens? Yes, that is trumped by the clear graphical statement from the mangaka himself, sorry. Yulia253 (talk) 16:56, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

For those of you waiting for Oda to address this issue; if my previous input is correct and indeed this is the case wherein she is a female emboding the spirit of a man absolutely 100% you will NOT ever see Oda address the issue. Because if thats the case, the Japanese would understand it even if we do not. You will be left waiting until the end of the manga and get no answer. This is something more of a concern to a western audience because we have no idea whats going on and we have a more black and white approach to things. They will learn this at school, or at home because their parents will teach them things or it will be explained like 1+1=2 is told at school in a mathematics class. So my suggestion is simply; don't wait for Oda to tell you something he likely will not.

Its not even the only time this has happened, because the Okama are people according to the manga "with the heart/spirit of a maiden" inside of them, and even their Queen notes that this is the case. So this has happened in the manga before and is going to be the closet you'll get to explaining her situation away. The only difference between Yamato and them is that they take things a lot more extreme then she is.

So yeah my advice;

• Get a guidelines page up to cover all gender related issues (don't forge to address devil fruits that change gender and normal situations)
• Link to Fandoms approach to gender on that page as well for reference and to cover your butts.
• Explain her situation + the Okama on said guideline page especially, don't forget the things I said on Shinto Avatar + spirt disconnection (this is relevant because of Japanese culture + japanese manga). If you need me to write this up this particular tab for you, I'll try but I'm not good.
• Remember its 2010 and this is a sensitive issue. Try not to get this resolved before someone says something stupid they/everyone will regret later.
• Don't bet Oda will address this because chances of him not are high because of the situation where its Japanese culture and the manga is written for them so he may never address it (he may, you don't know).

You can edit and tweak things later, especially if Oda does something, but from an outsider looking in... I'm seeing an issue thats not really being resolved. by now someone should have done this, whats going on?

Also, the longer you guys continue to argue on gender... Well... Its 2023, since the 2010s the Transgender and gender movement has been actively targeting people who don't agree with them. You can see this happening right now in RL over sports and Budwieser, and its not worth keeping at this discussion. I'm concern someone is going to say something stupid sooner or later, and theres going to be some knee-jerk reaction. I've always had the opinion wikis should be neutral because "freedom of speach" should be a thing wikis all have access to, but Fandom decided to support LGBT rights fully and you can get banned for going against that, which contradicts that issue in my honest opinion, but not my place to speak up. The risks in this entire conversation mean that you guys can't afford to keep arguing over 1 character forever and need to decide on the wikis approach to gender as whole so it just covers everything. And write it so it doesn't sound like a hate letter while at it.

If you cannot... Then the ultimate solution is just reference the gender issue on Fandom and if that doesn't help then you can't make a decision yourselves on this matter. That means, just don't gender her.

I can't think of much more advise to give then this. I just feel you should have addressed this by now and thrown up a guidelines. I don't see anywhere addressing the issue in any guideline or FAQ on the wiki, so if you do have one... It needs to be more notiable because I can't find it and I should be able to. Again, I'm a founder so, its not like I'm so newbie who is visiting for the first time, I should be able to find anything with 0 excuses. ^_^' Angel Emfrbl (talk) 09:46, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to put up Fandoms guidelines here, this superseeds everything. I thought I better put this up. Angel Emfrbl (talk) 17:33, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Everybody's gotten it all out of their system, I think it's good to close this discussion. Yamato will stay the same until further notice. Happy Pride Month, everyone. uknownada ^Talk 01:25, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

You have no authority to close discussions. Anyway I forgot to respond to Angel. If what she is saying is true then somebody like Klobis would be needed to confirm if what she's saying is true. SeaTerror (talk) 03:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

To be fair SeaTerror, Fandom guidelines should have been addressed from the start as they govern all wikis and their approaches. In fact, if you don't obey them, it can get you into trouble. I can try and explain Yamato's logic, but at the end of the day, what stands still is what she identifies as. It falls back to that and Fandom itself isn't neutral on this matter.

Also... Alot of the people here on this wiki I feel have gotten borderline close to being considered offensive in the past months and some of you left yourselves open to accusations and banning for transphobia, no one really broke into this terrain but this is not the issue. Due to the political climate, people ARE taking the slightest suggestion, even if its not actually canon storyline we're talking about, as a sign of hate. And you can't even criticize headcanon territory for disregarding canon genders because THAT can be perceived as hate or phobic, I know of at least a few fans who've come across this in other fandoms.

My last piece of advice is just be careful you guys right now on any gender issue. Pride Month or not, supportive or not, this entire topic is really heated. You only have to read the news about trans athletes being banned in female sports and you'll see people arguing over that domain. But lets not getting into this at all, its unrelated to this wiki, but its something to keep your eyes open to. Anyway I don't think I can say much else so if you guys don't mind I'll go back to months of silence... Until the next time I think its best I speak up. ;-D 18:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I meant only somebody from Japan would be able to confirm what you are saying. SeaTerror (talk) 05:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Y’all should probably just restrict Yamato’s page indefinitely. Anyone with actual information to contribute could just contact the editing mods so they can do it themselves. YKMillion

This won't change anything with our decision, and obviously it's not "new" information, but it is information that I've never seen brought up in these kinds of discussions. I feel that it's noteworthy enough to bring up. So consider it "recently unearthed", which in my eyes is just as good as "new". A common argument against Yamato's use of "boku", a commonly but not exclusively masculine pronoun (according to English fans on the internet, that is), is that Big Mom also uses a masculine pronoun "ore". This was brought up a few times in this talk page. However, Oda has actually addressed this. In SBS Volume 85, Chapter 852, Oda mentions that the "ore" pronoun used to be more gender-neutral, and that some women today still use ore sometimes. What this suggests, to me, is that Oda tends to write pronouns in a more traditional way than what young readers experience. It might be rare for a young person to see a woman using "ore", but for Oda that's just how it's always been. The same logic can be applied to boku, a traditionally masculine pronoun. Assuming that Oda favors traditional use of first-person pronouns, then that would mean he intends to use Yamato's "boku" in a masculine way. The point is, just because Big Mom uses what's seen today as a "masculine pronoun" does NOT mean she's using it as a masculine pronoun, because it's also, as Oda has said, gender-natural. Again, this changes nothing with the discussion. But if anybody says "actually, Big Mom uses masc pronouns too", refer to them to the SBS.
By the way, Oden's pronoun is "ore" as well, which Yamato doesn't use. I just thought that's neat. uknownada ^Talk 23:46, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Yama-o translation

Dub Luffy now calls Yamato "Yama-bro", in place of the sub's Yama-o.TheBlackDemon1996 (talk) 17:34, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Based Luffy knowing what's up. Maddwaffles (talk) 09:49, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Devil Fruit Awakening

Hey! Let's talk this out! This is an active talk page. Please participate if you wish to make changes to the subject at hand. Remember to remain calm and civil throughout the discussion!

Why are we not including Yamato's Devil Fruit as awakened when it clearly shows all the aspects of an awakened user? I get that it hasn't been explicitly stated in the manga, but it also hasn't been explicitly stated for Kaku or the Five Elders, yet they have been added on the Devil Fruit page as such. No other Mythical Zoan that isn't awakened has flaming hair and a ribbon-like drapery. At minumum this fruit should be presumed awakened until stated otherwise or Kaku or the Five Elders should be removed from said section. Flixfrog (talk) 3:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Personally I'm in agreement that we should include the statement that it "seems like" Yamato has Awakened their Devil Fruit until indicated otherwise by the manga. Damage3245 (talk) 08:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

While I personally do believe Yamato has Awakened the Okuchi no Makami fruit, at the very least we could state that it "seems like" it, yes. Timjer (talk) 11:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

"No other Mythical Zoan that isn't awakened has flaming hair and a ribbon-like drapery."
Gear 4. Yamato's doesn't exactly match the traits of Lucci's, whereas Kaku's and the Elders' do. One Piece Magazine 13 also provides an alternative explanation for the ribbon that doesn't involve awakening. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 15:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Yamato has a Hagoromo scarf around their body like other Awakened Zoans do. And the fact that they maintain it in their full-beast form isn't an argument anymore because that also applies to the Gorosei. So I don't think there's any more reason not to consider Yamato an Awakened Zoan.

The wiki's justification is that Yamato's Hagoromo scarf was described as "cold air" by One Piece Magazine Vol.13. However, I don't think that justification holds up because it implies rules that the manga never established about what the flame scarf has to be made out of. Plus, we have cases like where Awakened Zoans can have distinct scarves (Like Luffy's white steam-based scarf vs. Lucci and Kaku's dark-colored scarves), so this isn't a good reason why Yamato should be excluded.

Derpalooza (talk) 00:24, March 25, 2024 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to outright state that Yamato is Awakened when there's an alternative explanation for his smoke, being the cold air he can manipulate, and his hair doesn't have the same fiery effect as the other Awakened Zoans. We also don't need to force it - listing him as a potential Awakened Zoan lets the reader decide, while still acknowledging that he may be.

Using Luffy's fruit as an example as a distinct scarf is also not ideal - we already know his Awakening seems to work differently, giving him abilities more indicate of Paramecia fruits, and he's the only Awakened who doesn't have the dark-colored scarf. It obviously doesn't mean he is the only one like that, but until we see others, it's probably not ideal to jump to the conclusion that it's standard.

Listing him as potentially Awakened still leaves him in the section on Awakening, so it feels like a good way to minimize speculation. Walrsu (talk) 23:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the lack of a Hagoromo scarf on any other Zoan, Mythical or otherwise, that isn't awakwened means Yamato has an Awakened fruit as well. Also Yamato does have the same fiery hair effect as the other Awakened Zoans. Flixfrog (talk) 23:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

As Dragonus Nesha mentioned above, Gear 4 also has a Hagoromo scarf, and it isn't Awakened. I still don't think Luffy should be used as an example, but if he is, then there's an example of a Hagoromo scarf on a non-Awakened Zoan.

Yamato's scarf is also still explained by the magazine as being distinct from Awakening. While it's obviously possible it's also related to Awakening, stating that outright would be speculative.

Yamato's hair is not the same effect as the other Awakened Zoan. Every other Awakened Zoan, with the exception of Mars and Ju Peter (who don't have hair), have fiery hair that exactly matches the appearance of their scarf. Yamato doesn't - while his hair is messy, it's very clearly distinct from his scarf. Walrsu (talk) 23:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yamato's hair does have the fiery effect. In both of the forms.

Now, you are correct that Luffy's fruit is different from normal Zoans, so I'll grant that it's not the best comparison. However, while you could explain Yamato's scarf as being a byproduct of their ice powers, Yamato isn't the only Zoan that can control an element while transformed. Marco creates blue flames, Kaido creates draconic clouds, and King creates normal flames, but none of them generate Hagoromo clouds around themselves when using their powers. On the other hand, Yamato not only generates the scarf, but has it even when they aren't using their ice powers. I don't think it's convincing to argue that Yamato is just passively generating something that looks similar to the awakening cloud when similar Zoans don't do that.

(And yes, I'm aware King's flames aren't a result of his devil fruit. What I'm saying is that he could shape a flame scarf around his Zoan forms like Yamato does, but doesn't).

Derpalooza (talk) 01:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yamato's hair is wavy but does not match his scarf like the other Awakened Zoans. Compare it to Lucci's, Kaku's, or any of the Elders' hair, which are nearly identical to the scarves, for example. Even in the images linked, his hair flows out behind him, but is not smokey like the scarf - I don't like citing the anime, since it's ultimately just Toei's interpretation, but I think the difference is clearer there; see 1, 2.

I think the whole debate is still ignoring the fact that we don't have to say anything with 100% uncertainty anyways. Even if you think he is Awakened, it's at least very unclear, so just listing it as a possibility and explaining the reasoning is ideal, in my opinion. Walrsu (talk) 00:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I think we're splitting hairs. Flowing hair is still drawn with a flaming pattern in the manga, so flowing and flaming hair will look the indistinct. Plus, if we're going to use the anime as an argument, then we should at least wait for Lucci and Kaku's anime renditions for this to be a valid apples-to-apples comparison.

That being said, Most of the Gorosei have flaming hair that don't match their scarves.. Derpalooza (talk) 01:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Flowing hair sometimes being with a flaming pattern just makes Yamato's non-flaming hair stand out more. His hair doesn't look smokey or fiery like his scarf. My bringing up of the anime was just to show it more clearly - I don't think it should be used as definitive proof of anything, more that it better displays how I interpret the manga.

That image of the Elders is not a good one for seeing their hair, but it even shows Saturn's and Mars' matching hair and scarves, on Saturn's head and Mars' spine. You can see Warcury's hair better here, where it's visibly fiery, unlike Yamato's. The only one that's hard to tell is Nusjuro, but even here, you can see flames going down his back. And Ju Peter doesn't have hair as far as I can tell. It should also be mentioned that there's no reason they can't have both flamey/smokey hair and normal hair, but Yamato only has normal hair.

I still don't see what the problem with listing Yamato as potentially Awakened is. It's objectively a more secure and neutral position, that can easily be changed if he's later stated to be Awakened or not Awakened, while providing all the necessary information to readers. Walrsu (talk) 05:51, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I misunderstood and thought you were referring to the color of the awakened hair. But I'm not sure you keep saying that Yamato's hair isn't fiery like the scarf, because it is. If you interpret that as "flowing" instead of "flaming", that's fine, but I can just as easily argue the same thing about other awakened Zoans. This whole argument about how fiery the fiery hair needs to be is not only really subjective, but it feels more like a nitpick than a genuine distinction.

Now, I would have agreed with listing Yamato as "potentially awakened" earlier on in Egghead. Because prior to the Gorosei's arrival, there were tangible differences between Yamato and other awakened Zoans (like having the flame cloud in both forms) that you could use to argue that she wasn't one. But as of the current point in the story, there's no longer any strong enough distinction between Yamato and other awakened Zoans to really warrant excluding him. It's one thing if we want to take the secure and neutral position as you said, but we should be consistent with it. For instance take the Gorosei:

A) They weren't even officially confirmed to be devil fruit users, let alone awakened Zoans

B) They have the ability to transform between full-beast and hybrid forms, which no awakened Zoan was shown to be able to do prior to that point

C) They share a litany of dark and arcane powers that other Zoans don't have, which could also potentially explain their transformations

There's just as much ambiguity with them as there is with Yamato, if not more. But despite that, the wiki decided they were awakened Zoans. We can't pick and choose when we want to go with the neutral interpretation. Derpalooza (talk) 19:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Derpalooza has a very good point. If we are "safely assuming" the Elders are Awakened Zoan (let alone Awakened Mythical Zoan) users simply because of the cloud scarfs, then we really should safely assume Yamato is an Awakened Zoan as well. Also, for those who use G4 as an example, I'd like point out that the Gomu Gomu no Mi is clearly supposed to be a bit of an outlier for Zoans. So I'm not sure if we should use it as absolute proof of anything. Timjer (talk) 19:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yamato's hair definitely matches his scarf more in that image, but the fact that it doesn't always - compared to other Awakened Zoans, who have been shown to consistently match - seems like shaky ground. I do agree that arguing over the hair is subjective, but that subjectivity is exactly the issue. Other Awakened Zoans objectively have hair and scarves that match, while Yamato's is unclear.

With respect to those three points about the Elders, they're not in the same situation as Yamato. We have to assume they have Zoans because we've seen them transform between the three forms, and given that assumption, they fit the criteria of having Awakened Zoans. If a later source describes their scarves as "trails of magic" or something else, then I would argue that we shouldn't list them as Awakened.

On top of that, excluding the Gomu Gomu no Mi (which I believe we should, since it clearly functions differently at some level), all Awakening scarves are a dark color, unlike Yamato's white scarf. I would argue that is actually a bigger issue than anything else, but since the magazine explicitly states his scarf is made of the cold air he manipulates, it seems to be separate from Awakening, explaining the color difference.

If anything, I would say the best time to argue for Yamato being Awakened would have been before we saw the Elders. At that point, the black scarves and flaming hair hadn't been as proven as they are now.

I don't actually think Yamato is Awakened at all, but listing him as potentially Awakened still seems like the most neutral option. Both the Elders and Yamato display new traits of Awakening if they are Awakened, but the Elders have no other explanation, while Yamato does. Arguing the Elders could be using Mythical abilities is useless when we don't know what their Mythical abilities actually are, but we do know Yamato's abilities - they allow him to manipulate ice and cold air, which canon sources explicitly state to be what floats around him.

Also, I want to add - we definitely can pick when to follow a more neutral interpretation. That's the point of discussions, and what we're doing now. The Elders, for example, are arguably more likely to be Awakened than not, while I would argue Yamato is pretty 50/50 at best. Walrsu (talk) 01:27, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

While I would settle with a trivia point of Yamato possibly being Awakened at this point, I still have to point out that the whole "cold air scarf" statement came from a guidebook that may not have been written by Oda himself, right? A guidebook that afaik came out before the scarf was proven in the story to be an indicator of Awakened Zoans. Let's not forget that Yamato's gender was also stated to be female in one of those sources, and I think we all know what our ultimate decision was on that front. Timjer (talk) 12:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It's no more subjective with Yamato than it is with any other awakened Zoans. Yamato is always drawn with flaming hair matching the scarf. If you want to insist otherwise, then at least provide examples so we aren't going in circles. But in any case, Saturn's beard isn't flame-like in his awakened form, while Lucci and Kaku's beards are. So that's not a consistent basis to make the judgement. (Edit: The hair on Mars' head is also never drawn as flaming either)

Also, you didn't actually address any of my three points with the Gorosei. All you said was "We have to assume they have Zoans because we've seen them transform between the three forms, and given that assumption, they fit the criteria of having Awakened Zoans", which applies to Yamato too. I won't touch on the cold air argument, since that's already been addressed earlier in this thread.

The point of discussion isn't so that we can pick and choose. It's to justify why our position isn't picking and choosing. If we're going to go with the neutral interpretation for Yamato and not the Gorosei, you should at least elaborate on why. Because I don't agree that the Gorosei (with their arcane powers and lack of official devil fruit confirmation) are more likely, while Yamato just 50/50 because their visibly fiery hair isn't meeting some arbitrary threshold of fieryness.

Derpalooza (talk) 15:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC) (Edit: Spelling)

The magazines are considered canon unless contradicted by a higher-tier canon source. I don't want to discuss Yamato's gender, but the discussion ultimately considered the Vivre Card to be conflicting with the manga, which isn't the case here - while smoke scarves are normally considered a sign of Zoan Awakening, it's not like that must be the only source of a floating scarf. The Tori Tori no Mi, Model: Nue¹ has a floating scarf of fire, but it's obviously just an extension of the fire enveloping its body, which is essentially what I'm arguing is the case for Yamato (though Yamato's is obviously more ambiguous).

The observation about Lucci, Saturn, and Mars' beards is interesting, but I don't see the relevance. I never said all their hair had to be smokey, just that the hair that is smokey should match the scarf, which I don't believe to be the case for Yamato. For Kaku, who doesn't even have a beard, that appears to either be the hair along his spine or his scarf, but it's at a weird angle, so I'm honestly not sure what it's meant to be depicting. There are also examples of Yamato's hair not matching his scarf - the first two pictures you provided both don't match, for example. Either way, I don't think the hair is a perfect indicator, which is why I tried to bring the discussion back to the scarf - like you mentioned, the hair is fairly arbitrary, and something we can argue back and forth forever on. You'll notice that the proposed neutral position in the Awakening section avoids discussing his hair other than a brief mention of it being "untamed", a word I picked specifically because it doesn't lean in either direction.

I actually brought up the Elders having both kinds of hair before, and explained why it wasn't an issue - It should also be mentioned that there's no reason they can't have both flamey/smokey hair and normal hair, but Yamato only has normal hair.

I felt my rebuttal of the Elders was enough of a blanket statement, but I can break down my issue with all three points individually if you feel I didn't explain it well:

A) Assuming they're not Zoans is more speculative than assuming they are, so even considering that is irrelevant. There's nothing indicating they might not be Zoans other than meta theories, while there are things indicating they appear to be Zoans - they have access to three forms (Human/Human-Beast/Beast) and they can fluidly transform between the three. If something comes up that can explain those differently then there would be room to consider otherwise, but in the meantime, creating possibilities is useless.

B) Yes, and this is a non-argument. I never once pointed to Yamato having a scarf in multiple forms as being an indication he wasn't Awakened.

C) Speculating on Mythical conditions is, like the first point, endlessly useless unless we actually have an idea of what those Mythical abilities might be. All that we've seen that might be Mythical abilities, as far as I remember, are:

• The telepathy between Elders
• The magic circles
• Warcury's blade-tusks

Please correct me if I'm forgetting something, but none of those could explain all the Elders having floating scarves. As I mentioned before, if something in the future indicates an alternate reasoning for the scarves, then I think we should reconsider the Elders' status and list them as potentially Awakened, but until then, Awakening appears to be the only explanation, unlike for Yamato.

You say the cold air argument has been addressed earlier, but I don't see how. My argument about every other Awakened scarf (with the exception of Luffy) being black hasn't been addressed, which I feel is particularly notable when we have an explicitly different source for Yamato's scarf. I would also like to add - you mentioned earlier that Kaidou controls flame clouds without making a scarf, but is this not a scarf of fire? If the material of the scarf is unimportant, would this not qualify as a valid scarf? Of course, I would argue the hair doesn't match, but his hair is definitely wavy, arguably more than Yamato's hair, which I would describe more as "long and flowing".

I do want to expand on my last point in my previous response, since I believe I worded it badly. You're right that the point of discussion isn't to determine when to be neutral, and I agree I shouldn't have said that. I think a better phrasing would be that the point of discussion is to determine the level of neutrality we follow. In this context, that comes down to the Awakening of the Elders and Yamato - both cases are indeterminate, but to differing degrees. A "true neutral" perspective would be listing only what's explicitly stated, but I think we can agree that's not realistic or useful in most cases. However, I don't think this means we must consider both the Elders and Yamato, or neither, to be Awakened - they're different cases with different points for and against. The Elders being considered Awakened doesn't mean Yamato must be, just like how if Yamato is considered Awakened, that doesn't mean the Elders must be.

I also want to establish, for the sake of not having to specify it every time - do we agree that Luffy's Awakening is an exception when looking at the traits of Awakening, at least for the context of this discussion? If not, we need to consider the fact that Gear 4 has a Hagoromo scarf, indicating it's not unique to Awakening. If we agree to ignore it, then all Zoan Awakenings have black scarves, but that's less concrete of a point since it's never been explicitly stated that they must be black. Either way, I would like to resolve Luffy's status in this, since it's tedious having to call him out every time a point is made.

Please respond to the points about the dark-colored scarves and elaborate on your counterpoint to the cold air argument, especially with the context of other non-smoke scarves like the Nue and Seiryu fruits. I'm content to consider Yamato's hair as maybe smokey/maybe flowing and not focus on it if nobody disagrees with that assessment, since I think it's inconsistent and unclear.

¹ With respect to the Nue fruit, while it is non-canon, the design of the fruit and its transformation were created by Oda (stated in Magazine 6), so I think it's relevant.

Walrsu (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough with the Gorosei's hair, but Yamato's mane still very clearly has the same fiery effect as his scarf even in both of those pictures. His tail may be off-panel in those photos, but it has the same flame effect whenever it does get drawn. There isn't a distinction here no matter how you look at this.

I also conceded that Luffy isn't a good comparison earlier in the thread, so I'm fine with dismissing him as an outlier. However, I don't think that necessarily disproves that Yamato is an awakened Zoan. As I mentioned earlier, there are other Zoans users that can generate elements, but none of them generate a hagoromo scarf like Yamato does. You brought up Kaido as a counterpoint, but there are two main differences:

• The scarves seen on awakened Zoans are specifically hagoromo scarves, which extend across your back, over your shoulders, and then back under your arms (1, 2, 3). We see this on Lucci, Kaku, all of the Gorosei, and on Yamato. The clouds on Kaido's arms are circular rings, not a hagoromo scarf. (Similarly, the one seen on the Nue fruit isn't extending over it's arms like a hagoromo scarf does. It's just an arch jutting out of its back that I've colored in monochrome for clarity)
• Kaido needs to actively wrap himself in clouds in order to fly. They're not perpetually active the way they are with awakened Zoans. Otherwise, he'd have had the flames in hybrid mode too.

As for the points about the Gorosei:

A) Your point was that we should take the neutral stance and that we can just update the page later once we get explicit confirmation on Yamato's awakening. However, my point is that we didn't get any explicit confirmation that the Gorosei were awakened aside from their hagoromo scarves, so they shouldn't be listed as awakened either in that case.

B) I was writing that for a general audience since that was a common justification for Yamato not being awakened. But you're right. You never used that argument so this is a non-issue for this discussion.

C) Your point is that Yamato's flame cloud is just cold air from his ice powers and is separate from his Zoan awakening. If I were to grant that for the sake of argument, that would make Yamato an example of a Zoan that can generate a flame cloud without awakening. In which case, the Gorosei's satanic powers could just as easily be an alternate explanation for their scarves. For instance, Saturn emerged from an inferno of black flame when arriving on Egghead, so why couldn't that explain his flame scarf like Yamato's ice powers do?

The arguments for taking the neutral option apply to the Gorosei just as much as they do with Yamato.

Derpalooza (talk) 04:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm willing to concede that his hair is more similar than I initially thought, but not to the point of fully matching his scarf. Again, while it shouldn't be taken as proof, it's at least ambiguous enough for the anime staff to think they weren't supposed to match.

It's not that Luffy being excluded disproves Yamato being Awakened. The biggest point I wanted to make with that has to do with the color of the scarves - every other Awakened Zoan has black clouds. While this obviously doesn't immediately disprove Yamato (there's nothing saying they have to be black), it does make it more unclear, especially when there is an explicit explanation given for his scarf that's independent from Awakening. It doesn't disprove that he's Awakened, but it makes it unclear - hence why I believe we should just say "he looks like he could be Awakened due to x, but y makes it unclear". I think the way it's currently written gets this across in an understandable way.

• To the second bullet point, I don't think that's meant to be Flame Clouds at all, I think it's just supposed to be actual fire. It is, again, kind of unclear, to the point where the anime draws it to be visually distinct. But either way, I'm arguing that Yamato's scarf is also being generated from his Mythical ability, and not from Awakening. The fact that Kaidou only has it active sometimes isn't really relevant - that would just come down to a different in their Mythical abilities.
• To the first point, I want to be clear that I wasn't trying to argue Kaidou was Awakened, just that there other examples or characters having rings or scarves of elements around them. Assuming Yamato isn't Awakened, and his scarf is purely a Mythical ability, the shape could be explained as easily as his fruit being the incarnation of a Shinto deity.

The two points about the Elders functionally come down to the same thing, which I want to emphasize again: We have an explicit source for Yamato's scarf that is separate from Awakening. We do not for the Elders. If Mars suddenly created a pillar of black smoke, then yes, I think he would need to be removed from the Awakened list. Until that happens, there is no other explanation for the Elders' scarves that doesn't involve endlessly speculating. Saturn's flames and his smoke scarf are very obviously not the same substance. The scarf visibly match clouds, for the most obvious difference. This is the same reason why the arguments for taking the neutral option doesn't apply to both. In Yamato's case, taking the neutral option involves trusting the magazine in its description and noting that Yamato's scarf doesn't completely match the scarves of other Awakened Zoans. In the Elders' case, it involves not trusting their scarves for the reason "they might have a Mythical ability that lets them create smoke scarves." To me, that seems functionally the same as considering that Sengoku could be Awakened because "he was the Fleet Admiral and we haven't been told he isn't Awakened" - it can go on forever, so we shouldn't do it without some cause.

Honestly, I don't think much of this debate is actually that relevant. Given what we know, it seems to me like we can't say with confidence that Yamato is Awakened, but we can easily say he might be Awakened. What we know is:

• Yamato has smoke in the shape of a hagoromo scarf
  • The scarf is explicitly stated to be made of cold air, which he can manipulate with his Devil Fruit ability
  • The scarf is white, distinct from the black scarves of other Awakened Zoans, which all appear to be made of the same cloudy material
  • While other Zoans have been shown to have scarves made of elements they can control, no other Zoan has been shown to have one in the shape of a hagoromo scarf specifically
    • Yamato's fruit represents a Shinto deity, and while they didn't specifically wear a hagoromo scarf, many Shinto deities do, potentially being an alternate reason for the shape
• Yamato's hair sometimes appears to match his scarf and is sometimes unclear
  • In the anime's interpretation, the unclear cases explicitly do not match

I don't think I missed anything. To me, this seems like a very clear "maybe" - not enough evidence to say he's definitely not Awakened, but not enough to say he most likely is. If in the future, we see a confirmed Awakened Zoan with a scarf made of a different element, then I think it makes sense to revisit this. Until then, I don't see how we list him as Awakened.

The current case, across articles, is to treat Yamato as potentially-Awakened, so the burden of proving we should change it is on you. However, doing so involves taking on additional speculation - namely that the hagoromo scarves are not all the same material, and we've just happened to only see Awakened Zoans that match. That doesn't seem like a good trade-off when the alternative is to have no speculation and just leave it as a possibility.

Walrsu (talk) 21:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, the anime isn't apples-to-apples unless we also have the anime versions for known awakened Zoans. Not to mention, the episode where Yamato first transformed came out before Lucci's awakened form appeared in the manga, so Yamato's anime design would have been finalized long before we knew the tell for awakened Zoans.

Furthermore, you're dismissing it as speculation to assume the hagoromo scarves can be made of different materials, but that's the logical consequence of your argument. If the cold air explanation is enough for you to actively commit to the neutral stance, then you've already granted that it's possible for non-awakened Zoans to form hagoromo scarves out of elements they generate. Meaning there's no reason for non-awakened flame scarves to be limited by material, or even by color. So it's not speculation to suggest that people like Saturn, who can make black fire, are generating their clouds this way, as Yamato himself is a precedent for this.

You're arguing that we should take the neutral stance because the magazine makes it possible to explain Yamato's scarf without awakening. I'm arguing is that if Yamato is a "maybe" because we can't rule this possibility out, then anyone this is possible for should also be considered a "maybe".

Derpalooza (talk) 22:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned before, I'm only using the anime to display that it's ambiguous. It's not a point of evidence.

I'm arguing that with the Awakened Zoans we have, the hagoromo scarves follow a pattern. Even with just Lucci and Kaku, they appear the same for seemingly no reason other than them both being Awakened. There's nothing stating the scarves have to match them - if that was case, Yamato would be provably not-Awakened - but it's therefore fair to assume that others that match have the same source unless otherwise specified. Again, if the magazine did not provide an alternate explanation for Yamato's scarf, then yes, there would be no reason not to consider him Awakened. However, it does provide an explanation, in a section discussing his ice-related abilities specifically.

Even with the possibility of hagoromo scarves being formed by non-Awakened Zoans (in this case, due to Yamato not being Awakened), that has nothing to do with the Elders. As I've mentioned 3 times now, speculating the Elders could be creating their scarves with Mythical abilities when we don't know those abilities is useless. If it really comes down to that, then assuming the Elders are Awakened is likely a safer option, given we have more evidence pointing to that (because, again, we have no indication of their Mythical abilities allowing them to create the scarves).

I specifically replied to the example of Saturn generating black fire in my last response, so it feels unnecessary to bring up again. Black fire is not the same as black smoke.

Yes, anybody who could theoretically be creating their scarf is a maybe. But, as I've mentioned before, the amount of the "maybe" is important. Arguing the Elders might be Awakened involves more speculation than saying they are Awakened because it involves coming up with an alternate explanation for their scarves. The same does not apply to Yamato - in his case, arguing he is Awakened involves more speculation, since it requires speculating on the nature of the scarf. No option is perfect except not listing any of them until they're explicitly stated to be Awakened, which as I mentioned above, is not particularly useful if we're trying to list as much information as possible.

To be clear, I recognize that it's also speculative to assume the scarves can't be made of another material. However, this feels less speculative than assuming they can be, given we've only seen scarves of a single, pretty specific appearance.

I have a few questions I feel we've gotten distracted from or that could provide clarification, so I'd appreciate your exact thoughts on them:

1. You mentioned previously you would have agreed to list Yamato as maybe-Awakened prior to the Elders' arrival on Egghead due to there being "tangible differences". Could you explain what exactly those differences were that are no longer present? You pointed out having the scarves in multiple forms, was that the only one?
2. Is your issue specifically with Yamato not being considered definitely-Awakened, or with Yamato and the Elders not being considered the same? In my opinion there's no reason why they need to follow the same decision - as I mentioned before, they have different points supporting and detracting from that conclusion - but if you feel they do, that's a different discussion.
3. Do you have an issue with the way the current segment is worded, assuming Yamato is ultimately considered maybe-Awakened? If yes, what parts? Also if yes, would changing them be enough to compromise on listing him as definitely-Awakened?
4. Do you have a specific issue with the Elders being considered Awakened, separate from #2? Or does it just come down to Yamato and the Elders not being treated the same?
5. Can you respond to the different color of Yamato's scarf specifically? Or do you feel that falls under the "other material" argument?
6. Do you have any disagreements with my analysis of Yamato's status from my previous response? If yes, where? If not, what parts of it make you believe Yamato is more likely that not Awakened? To me, that analysis seems like a very clear 50/50.
7. If the answer to #2 is not related to the treatment of Yamato compared to the Elders, what do you think proves to a more-likely-than-not degree that Yamato is Awakened? Yamato has been considered separate from Awakening at least as early as June 2023, so the burden of proof is on changing the current status. If the answer to #2 was related to his treatment compared to the Elders, ignore this point.

I also want to add to something I forgot to mention before - you previously said that I argued "we should take the neutral stance and that we can just update the page later once we get explicit confirmation on Yamato's awakening." I specifically want to be clear about what I think would be enough to mark Yamato as definitely-Awakened - explicit confirmation, an example of an explicit Awakening with a different material scarf, or an explicit confirmation that hagoromo scarves are unique to Awakenings. Any of these would, I feel, counter all arguments against Yamato being considered Awakened.

Ideally, I'd like to get more perspectives on this from other editors. It feels a bit circular at this point, and having more opinions could lead to a resolution, even if nobody is convinced to the other side.

Walrsu (talk) 05:18, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that other editors should weigh in. I can at least respond to your questions:

1. The main differences that set Yamato apart from the other awakened users prior to the Gorosei’s arrival was that he both had the scarves in multiple forms, and that he didn’t have a distinct base “non-scarf” form like Lucci and Kaku do. Because of that, I wouldn’t have agreed that Yamato was awakened until either:

• We saw another confirmed awakened Zoan switch between an awakened full-beast and hybrid form (Proving that this is an ability that awakened Zoans have)
• We saw Yamato switch into a version of his transformation that didn’t have the scarf (Proving that Yamato's scarf is something distinct from his base transformation)

However, the distinctions apply to the Gorosei too. So if we consider the Gorosei awakened, then they’re moot points for Yamato.

2. My problem is that they're not considered the same. I don’t mind listing Yamato as a “maybe” at this point. I’m not trying to prove who’s awakened or who isn’t. My point is we should be consistent. If what applies for Yamato applies to the Gorosei, then the Gorosei should be treated the same.

3. See #2

4. See #2

5. If you’re referring to the other awakened Zoans having black clouds, I wouldn’t use that as an argument until we get official colorings, since being colored black in the manga isn't an indication of its official color. Kiku (1,2) and Who’s Who (1,2) are good examples.

6. Your argument is that if Yamato’s scarf is made of cold air like the magazine says, then the scarf might not even be due to awakening, but rather is just a result of his ice powers. Because of that possibility, you're saying we should list Yamato as a “maybe”. And that's fair. However, as I said multiple times, if we grant that for Yamato, then any Zoan that can generate elements can have their scarves explained in the same way.

Whether or not we know the Gorosei’s full abilities yet is irrelevant. As long as they show one ability that could explain their scarves, then we have to consider that they could be the same as Yamato. And since Saturn at least was seen generating the black fire, he should therefore be considered a “maybe” as well. And as for your counterpoint:

“I specifically replied to the example of Saturn generating black fire in my last response, so it feels unnecessary to bring up again. Black fire is not the same as black smoke.”

Do you have a source that Saturn's scarf is specifically due to black smoke and not the black fire? Because you cannot possibly tell that for sure just by looking at the scarf. That's the whole reason you're citing the magazine to begin with. As long as it's possible that he's generating his scarf that way, he can't be treated differently from Yamato.

7. See #2

Derpalooza (talk) 04:15, 02 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for responding to the questions. I don't have much to say about most of them, but I'll respond a bit to what you said.

5. While I don't think black/red and black/yellow are the same as black/white, that's a fair argument. I don't like using the anime as concrete proof but I have no problem waiting for it to adapt other Awakened forms (Lucci's should be next episode anyways), since it'll let us get another interpretation from a more neutral source.

6. Here I mostly agree, but with a few caveats. I don't think we could say that for every Zoan that generates elements - it still has to be realistic that they'd be able to make the scarf they have. For example, if one of the Elders is revealed to have the ability to generate lightning, I don't think it changes anything.

I also want to specify - it's not necessarily that we have to know all their Mythical abilities to consider them maybe-Awakened, even just one ability that could explain it would be enough for me. Saturn's the only one even potentially in that situation, though, and while I don't think his generated fire matches his scarf, I concede that it can at least be argued. Yamato's case skips that argument because it's explicitly stated to be made of his generated element.

To be even more clear, it's not they can generate an element and they have a scarf, it's they can generate an element and their scarf looks identical/nearly identical to their element. I don't think Saturn fits this condition with his fire. Yamato objectively does, because it's been stated his scarf is his element - therefore the debate switches to "can a scarf be a different thing", which we have no real proof on either way.

Anyways I don't know if there's much else to say until/unless more editors respond. It feels like every argument has been made already, so without explicit confirmation, it mostly comes down to interpretation.

Walrsu (talk)

I think the way things are currently written is good and it should be left how it is, even though I personally think that Yamato is awakened. General thoughts, Yamato's similarities to the other awakened characters are obvious, and it seems really unlikely to me that it's just a coincidence. I don't think the scarf being called cold air matters because to my knowledge the other scarves haven't been acknowledged *at all* (correct me if I'm wrong). So as far as we know they could all have explanations like that, so that statement is neutral in my opinion. But I acknowledge that the black scarves seem to be explicit confirmations of awakening and Yamato's scarf being a different color creates ambiguity, so I'd probably prefer to leave it as it is. Treating it like it's confirmed in the context of the Wiki doesn't feel right. DewClamChum (talk) 00:30, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It isn't confirmed that Yamato awakened it since we don't know what awakening is exactly yet. The article is fine as it is right now. SeaTerror (talk) 04:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Yamato's form is clearly stated to be different from awakened forms since the scarf is composed of cold air and not flaming smoke. The Five Elders are considered awakened because the flaming smoke is shared with normal Zoan users like Kaku and Lucci, so it's what I would count as awakened while Yamato's form is different and carries the possibility of not being so. Because it is fairly similar, I would say it is best for right now to just leave the note about it being potentially awakened. AverageLiteratureEnthusiast (talk) 07:22, 3 April 2024 (UTC)