bruce lee would win no doubt i am a extreme fan of ali but he still would lose to bruce lee
WTF Is It With People and Bruce Lee?
- Thread starter Gsquat23
- Start date
So,
Mark Coleman is the grandfather of Ground n Pound, and he couldn't hold his own.
Bruce lee has a lot on people in theory, but in practice?
Lee's display of skill--especially his speed--vaunted training regimen, along with the testimonials of other great fighters (Ali, Lewis) and students, paint a picture of someone more than capable of dispatching a competitor.
That said, his ahead-of-the-times training and conditioning methods are common among elite professional fighters now so those factors--trailblazing as they were--are slightly negated.
In a way I compare him to Brock Lesnar. Many looked at Lesnar's amateur accomplishments and pro-wrestling career (which is essentially a demonstration akin to Lee's classes and film roles) and thought "What an amazing specimen. He would make an incredible fighter!"
And while he won Heavyweight Title, his fights depended more on his raw skills and talent, not professional technique. When Brock went up against fighters of equal size, strength, and years of professional fighting experience he got knocked out fairly quickly without much resistance.
As much as I revere Lee's skill and cultural legacy, I'd wager he'd break even against elite professional fighters of his class or maybe even slightly below.
Mike Tyson said it best, "Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face."
That said, his ahead-of-the-times training and conditioning methods are common among elite professional fighters now so those factors--trailblazing as they were--are slightly negated.
In a way I compare him to Brock Lesnar. Many looked at Lesnar's amateur accomplishments and pro-wrestling career (which is essentially a demonstration akin to Lee's classes and film roles) and thought "What an amazing specimen. He would make an incredible fighter!"
And while he won Heavyweight Title, his fights depended more on his raw skills and talent, not professional technique. When Brock went up against fighters of equal size, strength, and years of professional fighting experience he got knocked out fairly quickly without much resistance.
As much as I revere Lee's skill and cultural legacy, I'd wager he'd break even against elite professional fighters of his class or maybe even slightly below.
Mike Tyson said it best, "Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face."
We'll never know, what if he actually kicked ass though? Is it so serious that a man be number one in fighting? It's only sustained for a moment, that limelight goes fast. Look at Tyson in his prime then and now... We all can prove capable with a good heart, and diligent practice to be a fighter. Talent plays a role, but even that can blind someone from their potential.
Excellent POST!
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Another great post.
Gsquat23
Star
No. They aren't "great" posts. They ignore things like "facts" and use exceptions as the rule. Of course you'll see people getting knocked out by spinning back kicks and other moves that look like they're "straight out of an action movie". It's MIXED MARTIAL ARTS... They use various techniques from several different disciplines to fight. I understand fully that this was Bruce Lee's ideology as it pertained to fighting, but my point was there is nothing that actually shows him as being an elite fighter or a fighter at all. He might have been had he done it, yes, but there's nothing to actually show for it. And no, taking your or anyone else's "word" for it doesn't count. I think I appreciate Bruce Lee more than anyone else here because I understand fighting for what it is. My perception of it is grounded in reality and not in an idolatry view of an actor with a martial arts background.
Paladinrja
Super Star
I think the thing about Bruce Lee was that people got a lot more from his explosive energy than his actual fighting style implied. Ultimately, Jeet Kun Do was developed as a summary of all his experiences which did apparently involve street fighting or what is called 'Jiang Hu' kinda like a saying those outside the law who do whatever the hell they want. Including fight among themselves, etc. Of course this also attracts more criminal organizations, but its no more sinister than taking up a street fight competition, only to find out years later the organizers are mafioso's. Apparently, before Bruce Lee became a huge star, he was a regular participant.
His own formal beginnings (looking at kung fu style) is steeped in Wing chun. Which is essentially hard boxing style 'street fighting' (where it began) thats been developed with soft style for personal health via the Shaolin teachings that innovated a lot of styles as they moved with the armies of the Tang dynasty in a capacity, kind of like a support/police force under Emperors decree. Shaolin had an extraordinary commune socially, so it was a natural choice for the Emperor if not exactly what Shaolin would have liked.
This was mostly because Jiang Hu did cause quite a bit of social disruption, especially in Southern China and of course, there has since been all this ambiguity surrounding Southern and Northern Shaolin. It was just Shaolin and more than once, large strongholds in Southern China were razed, due to the Shaolin presence there. Wuxia fundamentalists whom didn't like interferance, were rumoured to be developing greater and greater styles and there was also all this reinvention of mythological styles circulating throughout the Jiang Hu world. Today wuxia is represented by the many martial arts movies that people can take part in; in ancient China being part of it meant taking an active role and of course thats still a big part of it today.
What Bruce Lee seems to have done is take Wing Chun and apply Dragon style from the Shaolin Five animal technique which is a formulation of a 280+ moveset encompassing 3 levels of ascension (difficult to master) and incorporates speed, power and strength along with intrinsic health and well being disciplines; and then Brune Lee innovated it for himself, with more freestyle military application like Tae Kwon Do which he could offer externally for sport/self defense.
There are many stories that recite the exact path of Bruce Lee was said to have taken resulting in Jeet Kun Do and for the sport fighter thats fine. However his style is steeped in the traditional Kung Fu and thats probably wise when offering a martial art as a product (especially to the west) not to get bogged down in the deeper disciplines as most people are inducted under a need for self defense not really a lifelong set of mental and spiritual disciplines that most likley even Bruce Lee was still largely practicing.
There is no doubt about his fighting background however. He was quite a popular street fighter that like most dedicated marital arts practioners in China, was easily lured into the Jiang Hu world of wuxia. Once you feel you have a good grasp of the essencial nature of Kung Fu, almost anything can be Kung Fu.
His own formal beginnings (looking at kung fu style) is steeped in Wing chun. Which is essentially hard boxing style 'street fighting' (where it began) thats been developed with soft style for personal health via the Shaolin teachings that innovated a lot of styles as they moved with the armies of the Tang dynasty in a capacity, kind of like a support/police force under Emperors decree. Shaolin had an extraordinary commune socially, so it was a natural choice for the Emperor if not exactly what Shaolin would have liked.
This was mostly because Jiang Hu did cause quite a bit of social disruption, especially in Southern China and of course, there has since been all this ambiguity surrounding Southern and Northern Shaolin. It was just Shaolin and more than once, large strongholds in Southern China were razed, due to the Shaolin presence there. Wuxia fundamentalists whom didn't like interferance, were rumoured to be developing greater and greater styles and there was also all this reinvention of mythological styles circulating throughout the Jiang Hu world. Today wuxia is represented by the many martial arts movies that people can take part in; in ancient China being part of it meant taking an active role and of course thats still a big part of it today.
What Bruce Lee seems to have done is take Wing Chun and apply Dragon style from the Shaolin Five animal technique which is a formulation of a 280+ moveset encompassing 3 levels of ascension (difficult to master) and incorporates speed, power and strength along with intrinsic health and well being disciplines; and then Brune Lee innovated it for himself, with more freestyle military application like Tae Kwon Do which he could offer externally for sport/self defense.
There are many stories that recite the exact path of Bruce Lee was said to have taken resulting in Jeet Kun Do and for the sport fighter thats fine. However his style is steeped in the traditional Kung Fu and thats probably wise when offering a martial art as a product (especially to the west) not to get bogged down in the deeper disciplines as most people are inducted under a need for self defense not really a lifelong set of mental and spiritual disciplines that most likley even Bruce Lee was still largely practicing.
There is no doubt about his fighting background however. He was quite a popular street fighter that like most dedicated marital arts practioners in China, was easily lured into the Jiang Hu world of wuxia. Once you feel you have a good grasp of the essencial nature of Kung Fu, almost anything can be Kung Fu.
LOLZ. Let's apply that logic to virtually anything else in life, any profession or artistic pursuit, "To think he is not a good sculptor because he's never sculpted anything in his life, is, you know, just silly."
Yeah, let's ignore those pesky, inconvenient facts...... who needs em'?
Gsquat23
Star
Excellent first post.
Your application of logic is mathematical almost, applying that a (known fighter) + b (known fighter) = c (victory over said opponent is almost logical because we have career profile vs profile), if a is (an unknown fighter) + b (known fighter) = c (the victor becomes unknown). Train up the unknown fighter in the methods of the known fighter and pit them against each other. There will eventually rise up, someone who is able to best the best. The future is unknown, to say, this person cannot beat that person, even with facts, it is fictional almost. Imaginary, because the two have never fought. You have actually added more truth to what I have already expressed.
If you were to consider every person known to man, on a whole; and if you were to resurrect the Roman Colosseum, full of gladiators, barbarians and unknowns, from A.D. 70-72. You can throw all these known fighters, with unknown fighters and have them become seasoned to win, with rules or without rules of engagement. The victory would not always tip in anyone's favor just because you know who is skilled. You can pit a UFC fighter vs a boxer. In different arenas, the rules will change the outcome. The fighter with an excellent profile you know should win, will not always be the victor. It all can be scrambled due to rules in respect of the sport. The boxer may win in the boxing ring, but not necessarily in a UFC match.
To think he is not a good sculptor and you have no idea what he is capable of. That type of dismissive thinking sounds like, personal biased opinions. The facts can change if that person were interested in this or that subject, separating the talented from the trained, hardworking types. You cannot determine anything based around that reasoning. Michael Angelo is not Leonardo DaVinci, but they both have been schooled in their occupations. Who taught them? Who tapped into their abilities?
In truth, there are many great fighters that are unknown and retain no spotlight. Who knows their success after unlocking their potential in training and selective coaching. All the facts actually point toward Bruce Lee dying at a young age. You are biased. It should not bother you that I believe in Bruce Lee's fighting prowess. That is my personal opinion. Had he lived, we could continue discussing facts to support this against other said facts, yet we are unable to say anything factual, except what we believe. If Bruce Lee were a UFC fighter, who would be his trainer or coach? We never will know, much the same his fighting career and profile is a picture on an empty canvas, forever unframed. RIP!
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Gsquat23
Star
Yes, but we're talking evidence vs conjecture. Speculation vs information. If he were to have trained and fought in MMA, would he have been a good fighter? Sure. Maybe. I dunno. But to be so certain when there's so little to go by is silly. It's moot unless you actually seen him fight. I've seen PLENTY of fighters who look fantastic sparring and training. They even talk intelligently and show they have a very high fight IQ on paper. But when it comes time to actually fight, they leave much to be desired. This is all as ridiculous and speculative as suggesting that I'd be good at F1 racing because I drive to and from work like a maniac. Leave it alone and let it go. He was an actor with some technical martial arts talent and ability. Not a fighter.
Nothing new here, and your barely presenting anything of merit. To be so certain? Is a choice, and many people place bet's on fights based around the one they believe in. You like evidence, and hate speculations. That's fine, I also did you a favor not going into non-existent facts, but scenarios instead. This guy is dead, he is the topic right? I'm not against your nonsense either. Reread, because your overlooking the point. It's obvious you didn't read. In the mix of what I shared, which I mention taking necessary steps to becoming a professional fighter. Training, and coaching the unknown fighter (Bruce Lee, who has no fighting career). Once that has transpired pit him versus whoever is highly regarded.
Now what's this going on about sculpting and now F1 racing? These points have no real relation to fighting, now who's being ridiculous? We are talking about a dead person. You bring up dry points and professions like racing, or your friend's example behind sculpting. I took sculpting and helped your friend relate it to fighting. It's obvious that I mentioned several times, that whatever the profession. There is always a teacher behind that person, a coach, and training is involved. There is a journey to becoming professional, and those who have mastered many skills become legendary. I never once shared that anyone can be a champion, but your so driven in bias to speak against someone that you bring up nonsense like your F1 racing example.
What bothers you? That I believe Bruce Lee is a great fighter, despite him choosing to be an actor probably for money. You leave much to be desired with your reply. Let what go again? Your true to your own opinion, I'm true to mines.
Now what's this going on about sculpting and now F1 racing? These points have no real relation to fighting, now who's being ridiculous? We are talking about a dead person. You bring up dry points and professions like racing, or your friend's example behind sculpting. I took sculpting and helped your friend relate it to fighting. It's obvious that I mentioned several times, that whatever the profession. There is always a teacher behind that person, a coach, and training is involved. There is a journey to becoming professional, and those who have mastered many skills become legendary. I never once shared that anyone can be a champion, but your so driven in bias to speak against someone that you bring up nonsense like your F1 racing example.
What bothers you? That I believe Bruce Lee is a great fighter, despite him choosing to be an actor probably for money. You leave much to be desired with your reply. Let what go again? Your true to your own opinion, I'm true to mines.
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Gsquat23
Star
But I'm not talking about opinion. Bruce Lee was not a professional (or even amateur) fighter. Displaying choreographed martial arts maneuvers in film isn't enough for me to believe he'd stand any more of a chance in fighting than your average athletic NFL player. I'm not bothered by anything about you. I'm just trying to help your brain get back on a logical track. That's all. Bruce Lee was a fruitcake actor with zero fighting experience.
bruce lee's dead, it's all conjecture at this point. there's no direct evidence he'd even be a passable amateur fighter, just as there's no direct evidence he wouldn't wipe the floor with every champeen fighter in history in any discipline. and it doesn't matter either way, except that it can get annoying when people take it seriously.
"isn't enough for me to believe"
is a direct admission that, at least on a subconscious level, the op understands it's all opinion and speculation.
to answer 'wtf is with people and bruce lee?', is easy: they're talking about the myth, not the man. bruce lee has a huge mythos behind him. it's just like 'chuck norris facts', but often without the humorous intent. i've seen people legitiamtely question whether hulk hogan could 'beat' john cena, and that's not even real fighting. it may be annoying, but it's normal for people to inflate their idols.
here's a blog entry that touches on that, from a former bruce lee mythophile: https://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/bruce-lee-–-myth-vs-fact/
here's an in-depth article on bruce lee's fight with wong jack man, touching on his fight with yoichi nakachi: http://fightland.vice.com/blog/bruce-lee-vs-wong-jack-man-fact-fiction-and-the-birth-of-the-dragon
here's a blog entry that attempts to answer the 'bruce lee vs chuck norris' debate 'definitively', including what's known about both men's fight experience and martial arts training: https://withoutwriting.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/bruce-lee-vs-chuck-norris-the-real-truth/
"isn't enough for me to believe"
is a direct admission that, at least on a subconscious level, the op understands it's all opinion and speculation.
to answer 'wtf is with people and bruce lee?', is easy: they're talking about the myth, not the man. bruce lee has a huge mythos behind him. it's just like 'chuck norris facts', but often without the humorous intent. i've seen people legitiamtely question whether hulk hogan could 'beat' john cena, and that's not even real fighting. it may be annoying, but it's normal for people to inflate their idols.
here's a blog entry that touches on that, from a former bruce lee mythophile: https://shootafairone.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/bruce-lee-–-myth-vs-fact/
here's an in-depth article on bruce lee's fight with wong jack man, touching on his fight with yoichi nakachi: http://fightland.vice.com/blog/bruce-lee-vs-wong-jack-man-fact-fiction-and-the-birth-of-the-dragon
here's a blog entry that attempts to answer the 'bruce lee vs chuck norris' debate 'definitively', including what's known about both men's fight experience and martial arts training: https://withoutwriting.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/bruce-lee-vs-chuck-norris-the-real-truth/
He's a sub par martial artist actor, you want the best martial artists and you look at people like Miyamoto Musashi, Samart Payakaroon, Saenchai, etc etc
To go as far as to say that he had ZERO fighting experience is false, I agree with you for everything else you’ve said but not with this point, you are just like the others when you say that he wasn’t a fighter at all, only they say he was the best, there’s just no evidence.
RKO-Cutter
Definition of jackass
- Aug 18, 2008
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Gsquat23
Star
/thread
Bruce Lee taught people his style before he died. As much as I love boxing, you have to come to realise it's a sport and not a self defense course. Would Bruce Lee score any points in a traditional gloves-on boxing match versus Ali? Probably not, because he doesn't practise boxing. That's not to say he wouldn't win in a cage match, but since when is that a measure of good skill? Boxing is a gentleman's sport - but remember, Mohammed Ali was found by knocking out a street punk that tried to steal his bike. So he definitely had the raw power, but because of the way Martial arts is designed to use an opponent's strength and size against them I would have to say Bruce Lee would win gloves down, but Ali would get the technical fault.
PSN-OrangeFeffy
No Longer a Noob
What the fuck did I just read...
Gsquat23
Star
I believe they call it "drivel".