My only guess is that they haven't played it very far in. The game takes time to get into, but once you're into it, your pretty much hooked. Honestly one of the best action games I've played, and IGN's 9.5 score and Gamespot's 9.0 are both equally justified. I love the living crap out of this game and so do reviewers. Why are readers giving this game such terrible scores?
Why Do So Many People Hate This Game?
- Thread starter Phoenixfire168
- Start date
Haters gonna hate.
Like you said, some just haven't deep enough into the gameplay, others just aren't feeling the game(which is cool), but then you have silly people like for example certain kinds of fanboys who think if an action game doesn't involved buff guys and TESTOSTERONE every two minutes it sucks. Also there's the people who see that IGN give it a 9.5, and instead of judging the game on its own, they're comparing it to what IGN says, which is probably one of the biggest reason for what you're seeing as far as the reader reviews here go. Best thing to do is try a game out for yourself IMO, honestly I don't take either IGN's reviews or most reader reviews too seriously, since everyone has different preferences and weighs certain aspects of a game more than others.
Plus Bayonetta is pretty unorthadox, it's not a game for everyone.
Like you said, some just haven't deep enough into the gameplay, others just aren't feeling the game(which is cool), but then you have silly people like for example certain kinds of fanboys who think if an action game doesn't involved buff guys and TESTOSTERONE every two minutes it sucks. Also there's the people who see that IGN give it a 9.5, and instead of judging the game on its own, they're comparing it to what IGN says, which is probably one of the biggest reason for what you're seeing as far as the reader reviews here go. Best thing to do is try a game out for yourself IMO, honestly I don't take either IGN's reviews or most reader reviews too seriously, since everyone has different preferences and weighs certain aspects of a game more than others.
Plus Bayonetta is pretty unorthadox, it's not a game for everyone.
I doubt you want an honest answer, and I promise I'm not trolling, but the reasons I didn't like Bayonetta boil down to the following:
1) Deceptively simple combat system
2) HORRIBLE story
3) Annoying soundtrack
4) Rampant misogyny
I have a full review at my blog below.
1) Deceptively simple combat system
2) HORRIBLE story
3) Annoying soundtrack
4) Rampant misogyny
I have a full review at my blog below.
I don't hate the game, I just don't believe it is a 9/10 game. I have played it to the end, and i enjoyed it very much, graphics were out of this world (xbox obviously) and the characters were hilarious: however after I reached the halfway point I started to play in auto-pilot, I didn't need to consider my move combo's as I was just repeating the same combo and it was working a treat. Now this is the reason that I would have given the game a 7/10, it let me down. I have since played God of War 3 (never bothered with one or two, I had a gamecube), and despite the button mashing comparisons, I realised early on in the game (Hades) that I couldn't just get past with just my L1 and square combo. Now graphically I would certainly have Bayonetta up there with GOW3, but gameplay, GOW3 really shows that Bayonetta has much to learn and justifies it's 9/10 rating, and hopefully by the time they make a 2nd Bayonetta game they will have taken note from GOW3 and the gameplay will require the player to use every available combo to get to the end.
I personally loved this game, the combat is way fun, and the pop musicduring fights is kinda awesome imo, and its one of the few games that I can replay and have just as much fun the second time as I did the first, really hope they make a second one although it seems unlikely.
Rex_Maximus said:
I read your review, and while most of your complaints have some ground to them, Bayonetta does not have a simple combat system. The minimal requirements to complete a game is not the measure of the depth of a combat system. If you wanted to you could beat all of DMC3 by using the /\, /\, /\ combo. Does that mean the combat is any less complex for it? No. And you need other weapons in GOW3 to beat certain enemies. Are you going to insinuate that GoW3 is deeper than DMC3? Hahahahahaa, I sure hope not, or otherwise you truly are hopeless. How deep a combat system is depends on how variables go into it. And Bayonetta is leagues and leagues above any DMC game in that regard, and maybe even above every action game period. I will admit that there are more combos than one needs for it, but the weapons are differentiated by the hold button and their abilities. Despite having same basic attacks and general moves, Shotguns and Lightning Durga are 2 entirely different weapons when you use the hold button. Then you have the weapons that are completely different, like the Katana, Whip, and Odette. Every weapon in the game fills some sort of role. As for the dodge, play on higher difficulties, and you'll see how easy the combat is. The enemies are much more aggressive then compared to Normal ones. And that's not to say you can't beat it by simply pressing dodge and attacking, you can, but you won't ever be able to make a long combo. That's where Bayonetta's most brilliant mechanic, dodge offset, comes in. To truly play bayonetta, you need to master that, which is alot harder than it sounds. And when you take into account the sheer number of options you have with the combination of all the weapons and accessories you can use in unison with these gaming mechanics and how varied this games' enemies are, you have literally thousands of ways you can play the game, and it'd still be a challenge on hard mode.
So yeah. You're wrong. While Bayonetta may have flaws, it's combat system is beyond brilliant, and probably the deepest in gaming today. If all you were doing is using one combo, then that's your mistake, not the game's. Be able to do something like [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQAHbS9c44]this[/link], and then we'll talk about whether or not you mastered the combat system. And that's not even the hardest difficulty.
I don't wanna be a troll.... but i don't think it's a bad game, just dosen't deserve a 9.5. I honestly enjoyed Arkham Asylum, GoW3, and other games WAY more, yet it got a 9.5, bull****, it deserves a 8.5 best in my opinion... Plus i have played both versions ( the 360 one all the way through) and the PS3 about 2-3hrs. And i the 360 version is better, but an 8.2? a whole 1.3 pts down, yea right, thats major, like for say taking a portion of the story out.
kiera2 said:
I believe he is referring to the fact that Bayonetta is proud of her body and enjoys showing it off. Because no woman should ever be comfortable sexually. Otherwise, she is a whore.
Here's the thing to note: All those criticisms of Bayonetta are actually likes and preferences and doesn't actually mean its a bad game. Bayonetta is just a VERY JAPANESE action game, and a lot of people are backlashing against it for that reason. I don't like soccer games, does that mean soccer games suck? Not at all.
What haters don't get is that there are certain "types" of games and people like those "types" of games. Someone who hates Bayonetta, I would guess/assume, probably doesn't play Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Prototype, Too Human, etc. and probably thinks all those games suck too (some of them do, dont' get me wrong).
Like, recently, after playing Army of Two 40th day, I started to realize I am totally sick of Unreal engine hide and shoot games. Even Mass Effect 2 is becoming tedious for me at this point because the more I think about it, the more I realize it's just the RPG version of Gears of War.
I'll say this... Bayonetta is light years above a lot of combo button mashing games lately.
What haters don't get is that there are certain "types" of games and people like those "types" of games. Someone who hates Bayonetta, I would guess/assume, probably doesn't play Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Prototype, Too Human, etc. and probably thinks all those games suck too (some of them do, dont' get me wrong).
Like, recently, after playing Army of Two 40th day, I started to realize I am totally sick of Unreal engine hide and shoot games. Even Mass Effect 2 is becoming tedious for me at this point because the more I think about it, the more I realize it's just the RPG version of Gears of War.
I'll say this... Bayonetta is light years above a lot of combo button mashing games lately.
It’s been a while Shadow, but I’m finally back to comment again. Basically, I think both of your posts are wrong, and here’s why.
The combat in Bayonetta is shallow because mastering the combat system gives little-to-no gameplay reward. Gameplay depth comes from learning and utilizing tradeoffs, not just having a plethora of sub-standard options. Contrary to what you may think, I was able to pull off many of the more complicated combos in Bayonetta, I just found none of them to be more effective than the simple light-light-heavy combo I mentioned earlier. This singular move was better than all the others for the vast majority of enemy encounters. The same does not hold true for DMC 3 and 4, and I can point out specific instances when one combo is better than another. For example, both games feature a similar pair of combos that only vary by the timing of attack button presses. One has a wide area of effect, and should be used when surrounded by weaker enemies. The other is a harder, more concentrated attack, that should be used to deal heavy damage to a single foe. While, a player could get through the game by just using one, the game becomes easier when you use both appropriately. This simple difference was more than anything I found while playing Bayonetta. Can you name, specifically, times when it is better to use the hold attack for the lightning durga than the light-light-heavy katana combo?
As for your jibe at me about a woman being unable to express her sexuality, I’ll invite you to reread my original review. In it, I clearly state,[blockquote]“I understand and agree that the human form is a thing of art; women can choose to be clothed or naked and that choice is empowering; and so on. But...the developers seemed like a bunch of juveniles who would judge the attractiveness of a girl solely on the amount of sideboob she’s showing”
-Rex[/blockquote]Bayonetta isn’t including her sexuality as part of identity, she’s letting her sexuality define her. Furthermore, it’s obvious that male designers decided to use this charicature of femininity to “entice” male gamers, which only serves to objectify the female form instead of uplift. I could go on with more Susan B. Anthony speak, but here’s an easier litmus test for whether Bayonetta is empowering or objectifying; ask any female what she thinks of Bayonetta. I can guarantee you that 9 times out of 10; they’ll more ho than heroine.
Finally, Gadget Geek. I would say I’m so critical of Bayonetta because I am a fan of the genre.
The combat in Bayonetta is shallow because mastering the combat system gives little-to-no gameplay reward. Gameplay depth comes from learning and utilizing tradeoffs, not just having a plethora of sub-standard options. Contrary to what you may think, I was able to pull off many of the more complicated combos in Bayonetta, I just found none of them to be more effective than the simple light-light-heavy combo I mentioned earlier. This singular move was better than all the others for the vast majority of enemy encounters. The same does not hold true for DMC 3 and 4, and I can point out specific instances when one combo is better than another. For example, both games feature a similar pair of combos that only vary by the timing of attack button presses. One has a wide area of effect, and should be used when surrounded by weaker enemies. The other is a harder, more concentrated attack, that should be used to deal heavy damage to a single foe. While, a player could get through the game by just using one, the game becomes easier when you use both appropriately. This simple difference was more than anything I found while playing Bayonetta. Can you name, specifically, times when it is better to use the hold attack for the lightning durga than the light-light-heavy katana combo?
As for your jibe at me about a woman being unable to express her sexuality, I’ll invite you to reread my original review. In it, I clearly state,[blockquote]“I understand and agree that the human form is a thing of art; women can choose to be clothed or naked and that choice is empowering; and so on. But...the developers seemed like a bunch of juveniles who would judge the attractiveness of a girl solely on the amount of sideboob she’s showing”
-Rex[/blockquote]Bayonetta isn’t including her sexuality as part of identity, she’s letting her sexuality define her. Furthermore, it’s obvious that male designers decided to use this charicature of femininity to “entice” male gamers, which only serves to objectify the female form instead of uplift. I could go on with more Susan B. Anthony speak, but here’s an easier litmus test for whether Bayonetta is empowering or objectifying; ask any female what she thinks of Bayonetta. I can guarantee you that 9 times out of 10; they’ll more ho than heroine.
Finally, Gadget Geek. I would say I’m so critical of Bayonetta because I am a fan of the genre.
Rex_Maximus said:
If you do nothing more than light light heavy attacks, your less likely to get a good score because the combo system encourages variety. Besides that, again, the enemies are far less passive on higher difficulties than on normal, which required me, to turn to better combos because they did more damage than others. As for holding lightning durga...yes. When I needed to stun enemies rather than do a bit more damage to them, so I can come back with an even greater combo, yes I needed to hold Lightning Durga for the stun several times. So yes, there is definitely a gameplay reward in it. You do gain certain advantages by using different attacks. Even something as similar as the lightning durga and the shotguns can have monumental differences if used the right way. Your only valid complaint here is that no move or weapon is so ineffective that you HAVE to switch to something. I don't see that as a flaw.
Before Bayonetta came along, I considered Ninja Gaiden and DMC3 to be the 2 deepest action games, but they are barely anything alike. DMC's enemies are VERY passive, more so than Bayonetta's by a LONG shot. Aside from bosses and certain other enemies, there is never any enormous advantage of using one weapon in favor of another. So long as you knew how to handle the weapon, they were all very effective against all enemies. Going by your logic, DMC3 is a very shallow game. But it isn't. What makes DMC great is the ability to chain attacks seamlessly together in unique ways. That is the reason that players continued to make unique combo videos 3 years after it's release. By contrast, NG has extremely aggressive and tough enemies and an arsenal with weapons mostly entirely unique to each other. If your good enough, you can dispatch any enemy with any weapon, but that skill level is a LONG ways off, so for most people, one HAS to use what is advantageous in their situation. Factor in the dialacombo combat system, compared to DMC's, it's MUCH more restrictive. For that, it's combo videos are more boring to watch. It's always a single enemy being launched into the air, shurikened, hit with some combo, then launched again to repeat. But it's considered to be as deep as DMC, not moreso or less than. It's just that skill in DMC3 is displayed by being able to make awesome combos while skill in NG is displayed by being able to beat down enemies.
The point I'm trying to make here is that combat depth isn't measured by any one thing. There are different kinds of combat systems, and you have to consider that you may just be approaching it the wrong way. And in Bayonetta, skill is measured by comboing, like DMC, rather than being down enemies, like NG. It's a given that you can beat down the Bayonetta enemies, they are not very difficult (WAY greater than DMC3's enemies, however). I ask again, can you, on a consistant basis, keep a very long combo going? In the air, using the jump mechanic without issue? Toy with an enemy using ridiculous combos as if they were nothing? Do you go through every fight taking no damage, kicking the combo meter sky high, and dispatching enemies quick and easy? Can you do all that on a consistently, on higher difficulties? If not, then I'm sorry, but you are not really skilled at bayonetta, whether you can survive all fights with your light light heavy combo or not. And if anything is the mark of a deep combat system, I'd say it's being able to tell skilled players from weak or average ones, and this is how bayonetta does by challenging you to keep a combo going, but also have complete control, not simply mashing away.
Anyway, that was just a last minute quip because I honestly don't care about the story in bayonetta, and her form is too...inhumane to be considered attractive to me (not that I don't enjoy her various poses. It's just that instead of finding it arousing, I find it hilarious). But you are wrong on a few fronts. First, if you think Bayonetta is a heroine, then I'm afraid you're the one who is paying more attention to her naughty bits than her actual character. In case you haven't noticed, she is kind of a bitch(she does get better, I suppose, but her development was toward Cereza and Luka only. She's still horribly cruel to Enzo for the lulz, for example, and her attitude towards Rodin seems unchanged.). She's a protagonist, but not a heroine. Just think of how she aggravated Fortutido into destroying that down just for **** and giggles. And Bayonetta is also not a ho. She's a stripper, and the difference is she doesn't show her sexy bits for someone else, she's doing soley because she enjoys it. She doesn't care if you happen to jack off to her, she doesn't care if you don't, but she will still do it for because it's what she loves. And no, she isn't 'obviously' made just to be oogled at. The developer blog explicitly stated that he created her as a woman that loves to be sexy, rather than one who happens to be sexy to attract gamers. If you think she is soley made for male herding, consider all the other symbols of her femininity and culture. Cat Earrings, Flower design on her glasses and outfit, ribbons in her hair, her butterfly shadow, the eruption of butterflies when she jumps, her jewelry, her walk, her careful application of make up, the roses she leaves behind when she runs as a panther. Consider her interaction with Luka, who she sexually dominates rather than is submissive towards. Consider her dialogue, how she makes various quips that can only apply to her as a woman ("The entire highway? In these heels?") No, she was designed to be a character that expresses her femininity in everything she does, and it shows in plenty of places besides her body. Hell, besides when she is using wicked weave, she's actually more covered up than most females in gaming. If this was just to as sex bait, then we would have had a character similar to the woman from Ninja Gaiden, who are given no more thought beyond giving them a sexy body. As for your litmus test, I'm not going to go around asking woman what they think of Bayonetta, but here is a [link=http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/213466/bayonetta-empowering-or-exploitative/]link [/link]to an article from one woman who makes a very convincing argument that bayonetta is empowering rather than exploitive. The only way you can call her a sex object is if you do nothing but look at her sexually. Yes, sexuality is an integral part of her, but there is more to be found if you but look for it.
Too late to edit, but just so you know, Kiera is a woman and she agrees that bayonetta does not have misogyny as well, so I'm 2 for 2 so far. ![[face_tongue]](https://cdn.statically.io/img/www.ignboards.com/styles/ign/ign/smilies/classic/stickouttongue.gif "Stick Out Tongue [face_tongue]")
I'm a female and I love Bayonetta. I think Leigh Alexander hit the nail right on the head with her [link=http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/213466/bayonetta-empowering-or-exploitative/]brilliant editorial[/link] about Bayonetta's sexuality (which I see swordslayer has already linked to) - especially her closing comments. As I've said on this board before:Rex_Maximus said:
kiera2 said:
I think I may be close to wrapping this up, because I’m beginning to feel like I’m talking in circles. I think one disconnect we have is the difference between deep combat and skilled combat. You repeatedly state that Bayonetta has deep combat because you can perform long combo strings in different ways. While I agree that takes skill, it doesn’t make the combat deeper because the various combo options provide little gameplay benefit. I think the reward for pulling of complicated moves should be more than the fact that you pulled off a complicated move. Here’s an example of layered, i.e. deep combat that affects gameplay. In DMC 4, you have your standard fare of different combos, including the wide vs. concentrated attacks I mentioned in my previous post. However, you can grab and hold an enemy while playing, allowing you to do all the previous combos, but with a shield. You can also use the Accel ability to enable Ex moves, which are more powerful versions of your standard attacks. With this system, a skilled player is able to layer the combat and is rewarded with the gameplay benefits of higher offense/defense for doing do. For me, long combos in DMC 4 were a side effect of using the combat system well, not the end goal. On the other hand, I found the only reward for completing successful combos in Bayonetta is that you completed a successful combo in Bayonetta. This seemed to be about as rewarding to me as learning to play the violin with my feet. Sure it would be tough to do, but is it really a better way to play?
Even if Bayonetta has a deeper level of combat, Kamiya sure made it tough for a player to get to it. I honestly had no idea that Durga could stun enemies. I played around with it, and even read the weapon’s description, but there was nothing to let a player know that the hold attack for Durga could stun enemies. Apperently, Kamiya’s inability to clearly deliver information to gamers hindered the gameplay as well as story. Another problem with the game design is the poor choice of making normal the toughest difficulty level available for the first playthrough. In my initial review, I stated that I kept having the feeling of, "Is THIS the chapter when the game is finally going to get good?" According to the responses on this thread, that point is at best the first chapter of the second playthrough. It’s a poorly designed game makes a first playthough tantamount to a 10 hour tutorial. Moreso, I have to ask who are the people that, after wading through several hours of repetitive combat, and, oh my God, “Fly Me to the Moon”, would willingly subject themselves to that experience again!?! Not I, good sir. Not I.
One a side note, Shadow, why would you need to stun an enemy when you could just use the bigger combo from the start, and use the dodge offset if you are about to be interrupted?
Also, Keira, while you had no problem with Bayonetta’s display of sexuality, I can assure you my girlfriend did! It wasn’t that she was angry about it, but it was just so obvious that it was male view of female sexuality instead of a female’s view of her own sexuality. But hey, I’m also not going to tell you that you ought to be offended either. If you’re cool with it, yay for you! Still, I obvious have issues with Bayonetta’s depiction, and it maybe the focus of an upcoming article.
P.S. I agree that breast are, in fact, awesome!
Even if Bayonetta has a deeper level of combat, Kamiya sure made it tough for a player to get to it. I honestly had no idea that Durga could stun enemies. I played around with it, and even read the weapon’s description, but there was nothing to let a player know that the hold attack for Durga could stun enemies. Apperently, Kamiya’s inability to clearly deliver information to gamers hindered the gameplay as well as story. Another problem with the game design is the poor choice of making normal the toughest difficulty level available for the first playthrough. In my initial review, I stated that I kept having the feeling of, "Is THIS the chapter when the game is finally going to get good?" According to the responses on this thread, that point is at best the first chapter of the second playthrough. It’s a poorly designed game makes a first playthough tantamount to a 10 hour tutorial. Moreso, I have to ask who are the people that, after wading through several hours of repetitive combat, and, oh my God, “Fly Me to the Moon”, would willingly subject themselves to that experience again!?! Not I, good sir. Not I.
One a side note, Shadow, why would you need to stun an enemy when you could just use the bigger combo from the start, and use the dodge offset if you are about to be interrupted?
Also, Keira, while you had no problem with Bayonetta’s display of sexuality, I can assure you my girlfriend did! It wasn’t that she was angry about it, but it was just so obvious that it was male view of female sexuality instead of a female’s view of her own sexuality. But hey, I’m also not going to tell you that you ought to be offended either. If you’re cool with it, yay for you! Still, I obvious have issues with Bayonetta’s depiction, and it maybe the focus of an upcoming article.
P.S. I agree that breast are, in fact, awesome!
Rex_Maximus said:
Uh....No. I NEVER said that long combos were the sole reason the combat system is deep, that's ridiculous (hell, I even said that it has more combo's than needed in my first post). I just said that freeform comboing is what the game has been made for, as oppose to tactical combat and expressed how each plays differently. And I made the exact same argument for bayonetta that your making against it now in my first post, except you call them layers and I call them variables and you say bayonetta lacks them. Well, here are the 'layers' in bayonetta: Dodge offset allows you to dodge and continue your combos, the enemies do behave differently enough that you have to learn what each one's moves in order to dodge properly, you have different wicked weaves when you use different combo's, your two animal forms allow for special abilities, you can pick up an enemies weapon for greater attack strength, jump canceling, you have soft vs hard lockon to allow quick access to different moves, there are items you can use (though only pussies do that), and then you have the assessories that affect the combat in different ways, from giving you a block, a shield, making enemies aggressive, etc, and on top of all that you have each weapon bringing it's own unique ability to the table. Even really hardcore players that have the exact same complaint as you about the combat system admit that the game has great depth because of these mechanics. Now, by your own definition of depth (and mine, really), you admitted that bayonetta is a deep game, unless you actually want to contest how these layers are somehow not valid. Anyway, perhaps the game can be faulted to an extent by not presenting itself well enough, but an action gamer is meant to play around with a combat system and find out the extent of what it can do. That you didn't experiment with the game enough to find out what each weapon's individual attributes are is your fault, not the game's.
That said, I do not mean to say that your complaint is not a valid one. That you don't get the point of experimenting when what you have works just fine is something I can totally understand. Until Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, the most tactical action game out as of now, was my favorite action game of all time, so I know the satisfaction that one can get from choosing the right weapon and playing right against a completely vicious enemy that tears you to shreds if you make the slightest mistake. I get that, believe me. I only like Bayonetta more at this point because it has SO much more going on at once in comparison, and it's truly innovative with it's dodge offset. But the point is this. Preferring tactical combat over a freeform combat is opinion and has nothing to do with depth. Pulling off a long, varied combo by utilizing several mechanics and avoiding a single hit while battling against 6 Gracious' and Glorious' is a reward in and of itself for me. The knowledge that what you just did was completely ****ing awesome and skillful, something you can only achieve my mastering the combat system, is all the reward I need(though the pure platnium trophy at the end of the round is a nice cherry on top). If that doesn't do it for you, that's fine, apples and oranges, and I actually prefer a tactical game myself. When Itagaki releases a tactical game with the same depth Bayonetta has as a freeform game, it will likely replace it as my favorite action gmae. However, your preference, whatever it may be, has little to do with combat depth.
Also, I don't know how you did on your first playthrough, but I got my ass throughly handed to me. Normal was hard enough when you don't know the system for me. I wasn't the only one either, plenty of people got stones across the board their first time, and only later went back and became awesome at the game, so I wouldn't call it a tutorial. And again, the combat is only repetitive if you make it so. As for the music...Do you have it on the 360? You can put in a custom soundtrack if hate the music that much. Either way, stop blaming the game because you can't/won't adjust.
Rex_Maximus said:
I assume that your not talking to an imaginary poster and just got my name wrong. Anyway, need to? We just went over this, this is a game that offers multiple paths at all times. If I dodge offset, I take a bigger risk because he might attack again and my attack would be delayed yet again, and I run an even bigger risk of getting hit (keep in mind, this is hard mode). By stunning, I have greater control over the battle, outright stopping an enemy from hitting me. However, stunning is also riskier than dodging short term, so it's a give and take. They're pretty even options, they just depend on what playstyle you prefer, and I prefer to have total control over the battle, mocking my enemies as I show them they not only can they not touch me if I don't want them to, they can't even try, before I break them apart.
Rex_Maximus said:
I somehow doubt that your girlfriend got anything beyond a glance at what you are playing. No offense meant of course, but I've learned most people are idiots and don't look beyond the obvious. If your going to make an article about this, be sure to go indepth and offer an explanation on how all the things (specifically things like her grace when skating odette, her butterfly shadow, her cat form, personality, etc) I mentioned are meant to objectify her sexually if your so convinced that the devs had nothing but T&A on their minds when designing her.
And I'd like to third the notion that breasts are awesome, and even go a step further and provide evidence.
[image=http://www.beautyden.com/news/pics/big-breasts.jpg]
Yeah, I have no idea where Shadow came from Sword! I guess I just made something up. I still stand by my stance that 100 combos that do the same thing are no better than having one combo. For me, getting a high score is not enough of an incentive to learn a combat system. I personally need one move to have a specific advantage over another for it to be a valued addition. Otherwise, I see the combat as little more than button mashing. And while that style of combat is my own personal preference, Kamiya clearly made some poor choices as well. I played through the entire game. I also read all the in-game information that was available. The fact that I, an experienced action gamer, couldn’t learn most of combat elements by then are chiefly the fault of a poor design. It’s ridiculous to expect players to carefully try with a number of moves which you even concede as being excessive, as if it were a science experiment instead of a game. I gave Bayonetta more than a fair shake and after 10 hours, found myself very disappointed.
Rex_Maximus said:
It's not like all the combos are literally the same thing with absolutely no positives or negatives of their own. As I said, a simple choice in weapons can offer a unique playstyle if used in the correct way. The only real 'flaw' here is that there is nothing distinctly disadvantageous to use against any enemy. Well, maybe the whip, that thing is more or less made just for bringing enemies closer to you and the dragon enemies, but I can otherwise see pretty much any weapon taking on any enemy. But it's definitely not "Here's 100 combos that are all equally effective against all enemies, lulz".
Rex_Maximus said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting Bayonetta on any sort of pedestal, there are plenty of criticisms I have for it, but I don't see the game being at fault here. You were repeating the same combo over and over and became bored. Well, why the hell didn't you experiment? If you were so tired of doing the same thing over and over, why did you keep doing the same thing over and over? And stop acting as though all these effects are obscenely hidden and take a lot of time to discover. I've explained that the weapons differentiate themselves by using the hold button, which is literally the third thing you learn in the tutorial after "press Y to punch" and "Press B to kick", and the game gives you more and more basic controls as you progress. You were given plenty to play with, you have no excuse for not using it. Yes, yes, I know, no 'gameplay reward' but I don't understand why you wouldn't, if only to break the repetition of constantly doing the same move. It's one thing to say the game didn't present the advantages of using each weapon well enough, and it's another to not even experiment in the slightest when yo have every reason to. It's like you insist on riding a bike in first gear (saying it's because it adequately moves you forward, so there's no need to change anything) while simultaneously complaining that it's going too slow.
(Also, who the hell looks up ingame info to master a combat system? In every action game I ever played, they all give a basic outline of the weapon at most, something you could have figured out yourself the first time you swing it. In literally every action game I ever played, I learned each system by asking myself "What happens if I use it like this, what happens if I use it in the air, against that enemy, in this environment, OMG new weapon lemme see how it works" and try it out. In other words, experiment, which you didn't seem to do)
But sword, I DID try different moves! I even held B down for Durga and saw the resulting ball of lightning. I just didn't think it did anything special when it hit an enemy because all of other moves I played around with had no gameplay benefit. The lack of incentives to try new moves coupled with the lack of information about these moves caused me to end up with doing the simple light-light-heavy combo because it was the most effective. After a reasonable amount of experimenting, I found that on normal the most effective strategy (i.e. a way to reliably kill enemies without dying) was to whip out a weave attack as quick as possible. And since the katana auto tracks, you don't even have to aim. Maybe it would have been different, and more fun, on a higher difficulty level, but it's a design flaw to expect a player to invest ten hours of playtime BEFORE the game becomes fun. It would be about as egregious if Very Easy was the only difficulty available for the first playthrough.
And to answer your question about who read in game information, well me, obviously. In other Kayima designed games like DMC and Viewtiful Joe, there is plenty of info letting the player know what the moves do without having to methodically test each one out.
And just so you know, you don't have to quote my entire post. I think we all have scroll buttons!
And to answer your question about who read in game information, well me, obviously. In other Kayima designed games like DMC and Viewtiful Joe, there is plenty of info letting the player know what the moves do without having to methodically test each one out.
And just so you know, you don't have to quote my entire post. I think we all have scroll buttons!
Rex_Maximus said:
I like to keep my replies organized, so you know exactly what I'm addressing.
Rex_Maximus said:
I recently played DMC1 and while Kamiya offered plenty of info on the weapons and enemies, it was only after you killed enough of them. By the time it gave me the info I needed, I found out what was effective myself. It would have SUCKED using one ineffective move on them 10 times before I reached the appropriate quota and the game told me how to deal with them. I much prefer figuring things out myself.
Rex_Maximus said:
Putting people on hard difficulty where the enemies are much more vicious and advanced enemies are placed as early as the beginning level would be an awful idea. They'd actually be more inclined to do a safe combo rather than experiment If you've gotten a grip on the combat system, I can see how normal might be a bit too easy, but for someone who is unfamiliar with the mechanics of the game, normal is a good difficulty setting to try it out.
Anyway, tell me exactly what you did. It took me a bit of time to really see and feel how and why each weapon had it's own use. Maybe 3 full levels of using JUST that weapon, against a variety of enemies and trying out different moves. How long did you experiment with other weapons, and what did you exactly try? I'm just really not following the logic that if the game is so easy for you, and we established that no weapon is really ineffective against any kind of enemy, I don't see how you were stuck using this one safe combo. I can't imagine why you wouldn't try other weapons. You said you tried them out, but then went back to the katana and safe combo because they were more effective, which contradicts your statement that all the weapons do the same thing.
Artistically, it is a brilliant game, the gameplay is good and gives you many options when it comes to killing enemies. Also, WHO THE F$%# YOU THINK ARE? Because I thought these haters are gamers, guess not, I don't mean to be so rude about it but C'MON! Really, males have been sexually abused in appearence just as long as the females have in the video game world, but did we dudes care? Hell no, no way, we couldn't care less how steroid endosed, overly muscular, and perfectly toned any male characters got in games! Unless this is the first time you have ever played a game you better quit crying about it! Fighting games are perfect examples of this because, really have you seen Street Fighter lately? Even Soul Calibur had an array of half naked dudes, but it doesn't bother anybody...because its ACCEPTED, and you might as well accept Bayonetta also. Don't like the game then you must have a primitive taste, this is art, it wasn't meant for people who don't like long combo chains, strategy based attacks, and classie background and music.
This has been my opinion, you are entitled to it.
Good Day
This has been my opinion, you are entitled to it.
Good Day
@ swordslayer
I've never played DMC 1, but by DMC 3 and Viewtiful Joe, Kayima figured out the importance of letting the gamer know about what the weapons and moves did early on. I think it was a step backwards for this trend not to continue in Bayonetta.
As for my personal experience with Bayonetta, I don't recall leveling up any of the weapons. I did at least try every weapon I ever unlocked (the whip was not one of them) and played around with some of the combos. After a while, I found that the light-light-heavy attack with the katana was the best move because it was the quickest weave attack, auto tracked, and had a wide range. I did misspeak in saying the other moves were the same, because by stating the light-light-heavy w/ katana attack being the best, the other attacks are not equal by definition. I guess what I meant to say is that the only purpose I found for using other combos is to boost your score. For me, this is equivalent to doing nothing else because it doesn't enhance the gameplay, and even hinders it.
@ Keira
This maybe too personal of a question, but how old are you? I have a feeling you're around college aged, a point when most females don't really distinguish between being confortable with their body and having to show it off at all times. In fact, it's usually the girls that are least confident that are most willing to show off their good n' plenties. Of course, none of this is a hard fast rule, but just my observations.
@RoyalSentinel
WHO THE F$%# YOU THINK ARE?!? Please type a coherent message is you want someone to respond to it. Seriously, what does "sexually abused in appearence" even mean?!
I've never played DMC 1, but by DMC 3 and Viewtiful Joe, Kayima figured out the importance of letting the gamer know about what the weapons and moves did early on. I think it was a step backwards for this trend not to continue in Bayonetta.
As for my personal experience with Bayonetta, I don't recall leveling up any of the weapons. I did at least try every weapon I ever unlocked (the whip was not one of them) and played around with some of the combos. After a while, I found that the light-light-heavy attack with the katana was the best move because it was the quickest weave attack, auto tracked, and had a wide range. I did misspeak in saying the other moves were the same, because by stating the light-light-heavy w/ katana attack being the best, the other attacks are not equal by definition. I guess what I meant to say is that the only purpose I found for using other combos is to boost your score. For me, this is equivalent to doing nothing else because it doesn't enhance the gameplay, and even hinders it.
@ Keira
This maybe too personal of a question, but how old are you? I have a feeling you're around college aged, a point when most females don't really distinguish between being confortable with their body and having to show it off at all times. In fact, it's usually the girls that are least confident that are most willing to show off their good n' plenties. Of course, none of this is a hard fast rule, but just my observations.
@RoyalSentinel
WHO THE F$%# YOU THINK ARE?!? Please type a coherent message is you want someone to respond to it. Seriously, what does "sexually abused in appearence" even mean?!
It means everyone has had their share of naked dudes surrounding the average main character, it doesn't bother anyone because its accepted as "the norm of games." For example, Dante doesn't wear a shirt, Hulk has an entirely new set of muscles in every one of his games, every playable character in Gears of War is ripped to the max, almost every fighting game has half there male roaster filled with over sized half naked dudes. It doesn't seem fair that a game is being judged badly because Heroine is sexy and not afraid to show it. Thats why I pointed out that male characters have that "perfect tone" as well, but nobody cares, some people don't even realize it in male characters.
In one of my friends findings he revealed that a naked dude is considered funny, while a naked woman is still considered hot. Note: Metal Gears Solids naked man escape mission, you have to admit that it was funny, but not offensive.
In one of my friends findings he revealed that a naked dude is considered funny, while a naked woman is still considered hot. Note: Metal Gears Solids naked man escape mission, you have to admit that it was funny, but not offensive.
Rex_Maximus said:
Ah yes, Kamiya is such an epic game developer god that he managed to implement his design philosophy into a game he never worked on (Meaning DMC3). Haven't played VJ unfortunately so I cannot comment on that.
Anyway, this whole thing probably stems from the fact that he wanted to make a game everyone can enjoy. By making all the weapons act in a similar manner, once you gotten a handle on one weapon, you've gotten a handle on them all. This is countered by each weapon having their own abilities that only hardcore players will find because they are the ones willing to explore every nuance of the combat system. He made an easy to learn, difficult to master combat system, while most games of the genre that are acknowledged as having deep combat have an incredibly steep learning curve that pushes casual players away. In terms of pure presentation, you may have a point, but in terms of game design, it may actually be a pretty brilliant move.
Rex_Maximus said:
..that would be because there isn't any way to do so. You only buy base moves, things you can utilize at any given time (like Panther form, though you don't buy that move in particular). Nothing weapon specific.
Rex_Maximus said:
This really isn't a reason. In Ninja Gaiden, you can do absolutely nothing but Wall run and heavy attack or Inuza Drop your way through the game. It works for 99% of the enemies and your very safe doing it. I remember there being a safe combo in DMC3, but I forget what it is. DMC4 had the buster and the Lucifer. God of War has the Plume of Prometheus. But if you spend all game doing it just because it's the most effective and safe move, the game is going to be a snore. As you can see, most action games, even the ones with depth have an abusable (or atleast more practical) combo that can keep the player safe at any time. But why would you play like that? That's not the way to play these games, your suppose to take risks and find out what works. Your suppose to experiment, if not for the combo score, for the sake of your own entertainment. The only way this is a flaw is if there is such a deep gap between the safe combo and other moves that the other moves are rendered absolutely useless and you are basically forced to use that move or die. (Which is what god of war does this on higher difficulties)
Rex_Maximus said:
Christ, dude, just accept that there are women completely proud of their sexuality and not afraid to show it without being sluts, and that making a fictional character with such traits is not automatic titulation towards the male audience with no respect for women as people. Jeez.
@ RoyalSentinal
Thank you for posting coherently. My problem with Bayonetta isn't that she's sexually and/or hot, it's that she's not but an immature view of female sexuality. The same can't be said for Ryu, Dante, etc.
@ sword
Um, I don't know what DMC4 you're talking about, but Buster is definitely NOT a safe combo. There are certain enemies that will actually damage you if you just spam buster. As for Lucifer, I seldom used it. I got by just fine with Rebellion and Gilgamesh.
Um, are you Kiera posting under a different screen name? I clearly wasn't addressing you, so why are you taking offense?! Am I not allowed to express an opinion, which I clearly qualified as being one with notable exceptions? I think you’re the one who needs to be more accepting.
Anyways, I'm done talking about sexuality in this post. I'm also AMAZED people are defending this game's portrayal of femininity. I'll have a well thought out post on the matter soon enough.
Thank you for posting coherently. My problem with Bayonetta isn't that she's sexually and/or hot, it's that she's not but an immature view of female sexuality. The same can't be said for Ryu, Dante, etc.
@ sword
Um, I don't know what DMC4 you're talking about, but Buster is definitely NOT a safe combo. There are certain enemies that will actually damage you if you just spam buster. As for Lucifer, I seldom used it. I got by just fine with Rebellion and Gilgamesh.
swordslayer2278 said:
Um, are you Kiera posting under a different screen name? I clearly wasn't addressing you, so why are you taking offense?! Am I not allowed to express an opinion, which I clearly qualified as being one with notable exceptions? I think you’re the one who needs to be more accepting.
Anyways, I'm done talking about sexuality in this post. I'm also AMAZED people are defending this game's portrayal of femininity. I'll have a well thought out post on the matter soon enough.
Rex_Maximus said:
Spell Check, also, c'mon dude have you ever heard of a character design like this? She is original and although you don't like it, a strong "in your face" women who can play with the big boys. Kiera doesn't seem to be bothered by her, and she is a woman too.(sorry for using you as an example in my arguement Kiera) Maybe you are being sensitive or maybe its something else, IDK don't really know you to judge you, but I understand it if you were offended by the developers design.
I can't help but reply!
First, yeah, I meant to type "it's that she's an immature view of female sexuality." Chalk it up to quick editing. Secondly, I was aware of the character design before I bought the game, so my problem goes deeper than that. Third, have you noticed my avatar is a picture of Samus?! You could also check her out as the header of my blog! I obviously don't have a problem with strong women.
First, yeah, I meant to type "it's that she's an immature view of female sexuality." Chalk it up to quick editing. Secondly, I was aware of the character design before I bought the game, so my problem goes deeper than that. Third, have you noticed my avatar is a picture of Samus?! You could also check her out as the header of my blog! I obviously don't have a problem with strong women.
Rex_Maximus said:
Is it BROKEN? No, but it's easily got a huge advantage over most attacks because it outright stops any attack an enemy is doing, plus has an area of effect that you can use to hit a enemy around you, and does massive damage at that. You can definitive spam it pretty easily so long as your not stupid about it. I have. And the Lucifer, just use the stinger input for it, and swords fly out. They embed themselves in the enemy and explode. You can easily spam this move and take even bosses out very fast.
Way to completely dodge the actual point of that paragraph though.
Rex_Maximus said:
Am I not allowed to address an issue just because you are discussing it with someone else? You have ignored my points on it, so I have a right to be offended if I were inclined to be so. As of now, I'm merely annoyed, because of this:
And thisRex_Maximus said:
Rex_Maximus said:
Here you are, calling Kiera (and the bayonetta devs who invented her character) immature because she enjoys expressing herself sexually in a way you don't like, and even have the balls to be appalled that people disagree with you. By doing this, you imply that you know the 'mature' and proper way a woman should express her sexuality (which, btw, is actual sexism). And then you claim your right to have an opinion, while simultaneously sounding offended that people actually defend bayonetta's "immature" expression of sexuality. While atleast in the mechanics debate you had the excuse of merely being ignorant of all the mechanics that go on in Bayonetta, here you simply have your head up your ass.
Rex_Maximus said:
He is right though, you seem to have a problem with sexually strong women. Bayonetta is sexually dominant in any scene she is in, especially the ones with luka who tries to get some but just bumbles his way through it, while Bayonetta is in total control at all times. Samus, despite being a girl, is sexless. She wears a skin tight suit, is pretty enough, nice personality, but no attention is ever brought to her sexuality. Unless I'm wrong. I never played any metroids, but considering it's rated T and made by nintendo, I doubt I am.
@swordslayer
Buster in DMC 4 is not broken. The light-light-heavy attack in Bayonetta is. Furthermore, if you stinger spam Lucifer, there's a delay between the time the spikes imbed and they explode. In between, you will get hit, probably by another enemy.
Pointing out flaws in your argument is not side stepping it. It's addressing it head on and pointing out the flaws. Such as this one:
First off, way to reshape RoyalSentinel’s statement, I almost missed it. He only said I have a problem with strong women, not sexual ones. Therefore I went with the counterexample of Samus. But still, other stong female characters I am fan of who have also expressed their sexuality are Buffy, Wonder Woman, P.N. 03, Invisible Woman, and Ashley from Mass Effect. And these are just to name a few! Your wrongness continues when you consider that in the very first Metroid game, players could enter the well-known code of “Justin Bailey” to play as Samus in a bathing suit.
Finally, I didn't call Kiera immature no more than she said my girlfriend hates her own body. In any case, I'm sure Kiera's a big enough girl to handle her own fights (not that I'm picking one) so once again, why are you so quick to defend her? I could say it’s because you feel a need to protect a female poster (which, btw, is actual sexism) but I’m not so quick to throw such labels around. Time after time, I've stated what I found wrong with Bayonetta, and why I came to my conclusions. Furthermore, I'm not offended by anyone's opinions, only amazed. Perhaps you should take your head out of your ass, look up the definition of the two words, and see how they aren't similar at all.
P.S. I reread you post where you first mentioned buster and Lucifer in DMC 4. I guess your point is that I'm playing action games wrong, and I'm "supposed" to play and enjoy them the way you do. REALLY!?! Your argument is that I'm doing it wrong?! And not just Bayonetta, but every action game I've ever played? Wow! I'm actually speechless...
Buster in DMC 4 is not broken. The light-light-heavy attack in Bayonetta is. Furthermore, if you stinger spam Lucifer, there's a delay between the time the spikes imbed and they explode. In between, you will get hit, probably by another enemy.
Pointing out flaws in your argument is not side stepping it. It's addressing it head on and pointing out the flaws. Such as this one:
swordslayer2278 said:
First off, way to reshape RoyalSentinel’s statement, I almost missed it. He only said I have a problem with strong women, not sexual ones. Therefore I went with the counterexample of Samus. But still, other stong female characters I am fan of who have also expressed their sexuality are Buffy, Wonder Woman, P.N. 03, Invisible Woman, and Ashley from Mass Effect. And these are just to name a few! Your wrongness continues when you consider that in the very first Metroid game, players could enter the well-known code of “Justin Bailey” to play as Samus in a bathing suit.
Finally, I didn't call Kiera immature no more than she said my girlfriend hates her own body. In any case, I'm sure Kiera's a big enough girl to handle her own fights (not that I'm picking one) so once again, why are you so quick to defend her? I could say it’s because you feel a need to protect a female poster (which, btw, is actual sexism) but I’m not so quick to throw such labels around. Time after time, I've stated what I found wrong with Bayonetta, and why I came to my conclusions. Furthermore, I'm not offended by anyone's opinions, only amazed. Perhaps you should take your head out of your ass, look up the definition of the two words, and see how they aren't similar at all.
P.S. I reread you post where you first mentioned buster and Lucifer in DMC 4. I guess your point is that I'm playing action games wrong, and I'm "supposed" to play and enjoy them the way you do. REALLY!?! Your argument is that I'm doing it wrong?! And not just Bayonetta, but every action game I've ever played? Wow! I'm actually speechless...
@ Rex_Maximus: As someone who has played DMC4 quite extensively and knows its combat system inside and out, swordslayer is right, it can very easily be exploited (also, thank you swordslayer for posting that Bayonetta Combo Mad video, I link that thing all over the place as it to me is a prime example why Bayonetta has the deepest combo system of any game ever. Those aerial combos are what jump cancelling DMC3ers could only dream of.).
First off, we have Nero. Yes, buster is exploitable. It's not just the attack mechanic, but also the grab mechanic (it's been a while, I can't remember what it's called, the one where you grab the enemy and pull them towards you, snatch or something like that). It can be used (once upgraded) from almost any distance and will interrupt any regular enemy's attack on the spot, and leaves them easily vulnerable to a buster attack. It can take down Blitzes easily (3 DT'd busters is still the most effective way with Nero), and that's not even mentioning its effect on the [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytCOs81DoNs]Dante boss fights[/link]. But swordslayer forgot to mention Nero's most powerful and exploitable attack. Charged Blue Rose shots. Once fully upgraded, if you want, you can all but stand in a corner charging the thing, and it'll do heavy, automatic damage to whatever it hits. Due to the non-aggressive nature of most enemies, you can even back up and charge exceed attacks if you really want to.
Then there's Dante. As the person who named the move, [link=http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928376&topic=41440953]Distorted Real Impact[/link] is highly exploitable and does MASSIVE damage to both regular enemies and bosses. It's extremely easy to perform, all you need do is get a boss or enemy into a vulnerable state (for bosses these are obvious, for enemies just knock them once into the air), then perform a real impact with gilgamesh, DT'ing on the first hit, then deactivating on the last. Between this and swordslayer's aforementioned pin-up spamming (which takes down the savior and echidna boss fights like nothing), Dante has plenty of options for exploitation.
However, none of this spoils the combat system and thus swordslayer's ultimate point is proved. Just because you CAN spam the most effective move or combo over and over, doesn't mean you have to or even should. For the people who enjoy action games like Bayonetta and Devil May Cry, they never needed any more incentive than the personal gratification that comes from mastering the combat system and stringing together flashy, impressive combos. It's meant to be an outlet of skill and creativity, and therein lies the merit of their extremely extensive move sets. Never mind that there is an actual gameplay incentive in performing stylish combos (both in rankings and earning the game's currency), if you don't find gratification in exercising your creativity in stringing together moves, you're probably not playing the right kind of action game in the first place. What makes your argument all the more vexing is that you defend DMC on these issues, despite the fact that fundamentally it stresses many of the same elements of (ultimately pointless beyond personal gratification) style and creativity as Bayonetta.
First off, we have Nero. Yes, buster is exploitable. It's not just the attack mechanic, but also the grab mechanic (it's been a while, I can't remember what it's called, the one where you grab the enemy and pull them towards you, snatch or something like that). It can be used (once upgraded) from almost any distance and will interrupt any regular enemy's attack on the spot, and leaves them easily vulnerable to a buster attack. It can take down Blitzes easily (3 DT'd busters is still the most effective way with Nero), and that's not even mentioning its effect on the [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytCOs81DoNs]Dante boss fights[/link]. But swordslayer forgot to mention Nero's most powerful and exploitable attack. Charged Blue Rose shots. Once fully upgraded, if you want, you can all but stand in a corner charging the thing, and it'll do heavy, automatic damage to whatever it hits. Due to the non-aggressive nature of most enemies, you can even back up and charge exceed attacks if you really want to.
Then there's Dante. As the person who named the move, [link=http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=928376&topic=41440953]Distorted Real Impact[/link] is highly exploitable and does MASSIVE damage to both regular enemies and bosses. It's extremely easy to perform, all you need do is get a boss or enemy into a vulnerable state (for bosses these are obvious, for enemies just knock them once into the air), then perform a real impact with gilgamesh, DT'ing on the first hit, then deactivating on the last. Between this and swordslayer's aforementioned pin-up spamming (which takes down the savior and echidna boss fights like nothing), Dante has plenty of options for exploitation.
However, none of this spoils the combat system and thus swordslayer's ultimate point is proved. Just because you CAN spam the most effective move or combo over and over, doesn't mean you have to or even should. For the people who enjoy action games like Bayonetta and Devil May Cry, they never needed any more incentive than the personal gratification that comes from mastering the combat system and stringing together flashy, impressive combos. It's meant to be an outlet of skill and creativity, and therein lies the merit of their extremely extensive move sets. Never mind that there is an actual gameplay incentive in performing stylish combos (both in rankings and earning the game's currency), if you don't find gratification in exercising your creativity in stringing together moves, you're probably not playing the right kind of action game in the first place. What makes your argument all the more vexing is that you defend DMC on these issues, despite the fact that fundamentally it stresses many of the same elements of (ultimately pointless beyond personal gratification) style and creativity as Bayonetta.
Rex_Maximus said:
...yes, that is what I said.
Rex_Maximus said:
The time delay does nothing when you spam it because only 8 swords can exist at a time.If you manage to get 3 of those attacks out, you got a chain reaction of explosions.
Rex_Maximus said:
No, you missed the point entirely. It's not that those moves are broken, just safe combos. You can easily bypass the game safely by using nothing but them because they are very easy to use against any and all enemies. They make the entire game ridiculously easy and going by your logic, there should be little point in doing anything besides those combos, and this all these games are crippled by their own personal safe combo. Obviously, that's horse****, which is what I was arguing. So address the argument next time.
Rex_Maximus said:
The hell? Ashley? I'm not familiar with the others, but when does she express her sexuality? Just by having sex? Besides that she made one bawdy joke, but I don't really remember anything else. Honestly, I don't even remember if she did make that one bawdy joke. Is that the best you can come up with with female characters that express themselves sexually? The woman hardly makes any expressions toward it! We don't get any insight into what she likes, how she important she views sex in a relationship, whether she likes it rough or gentle, any special kinks, whether she is active or basically just lays there, etc.
Rex_Maximus said:
You could say that, but you have no idea of my motives and I never hinted at any. You'd be speculating at best. Hell, you don't even seem to realize that I'm not defending her, just pointing out that you did insult her and called you out on pretentiously implying is suppose to be 'mature' sexuality. If I were defending her, I'd be trying to justify her position rather than just pointing out what you exactly said. What Kiera makes of that is her own business.
Lets go over what has happened in this thread. Kiera said Bayonetta's sexuality is identical to her own, albiet exaggerated. Then you say "it's that she's an immature view of female sexuality.". Not even an "I think", you say it as if it's a fact. Your argument that you were amazed rather than appalled would work if you had not brought in a negative connotation previously. In essentially, you were saying "I can't believe people are defending this immature view of sexuality!" So, no, you never directly call Kiera immature, but if you connect the dots...
And you didn't state it 'time after time' you stated it once, and then basically said "Well, I have issues with her, so lets agree and disagree" and then you ignored my arguments against the issues you had. I'd have more respect for your position if you tried to defend it, but you don't, you're just incredulous that others disagree with you on it, and with the negative connotation of 'immature' already in play, it's not difficult to infer that you think your simply being more mature than us by not giving credit to the portrayal Bayonetta gives off like the rest of us and that this fact should be plain as day. I'll admit that it might not be what you intended to come off as, but you did to me atleast.
Rex_Maximus said:
More or less, yeah. EVERY game action game has a safe combo that is more practical than other that allows you to kill nearly every enemy you come in contact with. But using nothing but that combo would lead to a dull, tedious and repetitious experience. Doing this does nothing but cripple your own enjoyment. You have a Bugatti Veyron, but you never go beyond first gear, a world class chef who you constantly order a plain grilled cheese sandwich from. Yes, you're doing it wrong. You have the best materials to work with, but you waste them on mediocrity, simply because they get the job done. Going through ANY action game by using nothing but the safe combo will lead to an boring experience and unless the game doesn't give you any options BUT to use that combo, it's not the game's fault. It's yours.
I find it hard to believe you don't know who Wonder Woman is...
Rex_Maximus said:
I know who she is, but I've never read any of her comics or anything.
Malcom90k said:
I somehow completely missed your post. Apologies.
How in the hell did I forget about charged shot?! That thing RAPED each and every enemy with a sandpaper condom. Another
Anyway, yes, what you have said is pure truth and probably said it much better than I have. Maybe you'll be able to get it through to him.
Aww don't ignore me after I type all that...
I've also never read a Wonder Woman comic.
I've also never read a Wonder Woman comic.
Malcolm, ask and ye shall receive! I've actually been pretty busy at work, but could use a short break.
In my eyes, once an infinite/always safe combo is learned, the game is basically broken, which is why I don’t get too hyped up over videos of ultra-mega-combos. While DMC 4 can be exploited, I think it’s unfair to say it’s easy. In fact, I suspect it took many hours and playthroughs to finally break the DMC 4 combat system and discover the “win button”. When it takes a lot of time and practice to find that win button, as in DMC 4, I consider it the player that “broke” the game. When that win button is painfully apparent a quarter of a way into the first playthrough, as in Bayonetta, I consider the game design to be “broken.” As I said before, this win button might not be true for higher difficulties, but I think one playthrough is more than enough of a fair chance, and I didn’t find anything in Bayonetta to make me want to play it again.
As for DMC 4, I’d love to discuss this game with a self proclaimed master! Unless I missed something, buster worked on Blitz only AFTER you lower its shields. Snatch was likewise useless when Blitz was charged up. Therefore, I had to do other attacks to whittle it down, and only then could it be bustered. Other enemies which didn’t allow for buster/snatch spamming are the angel knights (I forgot their names) and the infected scarecrows. As for the charged shots, whatever difficulty I played on during the first time, the enemies were NOT so passive that they just let me corner camp charged shots. And finally there’s Lucifer, which I unfortunately never played with much. I remember now trying to spam it, but the needles seems to disappear before they hit anything. Or maybe that delay was too long and I got hit anyways. Whatever the case, I seldom used Lucifer because I was using the Rebellion/Gilgamesh duo I learned so well in DMC 3.
In my eyes, once an infinite/always safe combo is learned, the game is basically broken, which is why I don’t get too hyped up over videos of ultra-mega-combos. While DMC 4 can be exploited, I think it’s unfair to say it’s easy. In fact, I suspect it took many hours and playthroughs to finally break the DMC 4 combat system and discover the “win button”. When it takes a lot of time and practice to find that win button, as in DMC 4, I consider it the player that “broke” the game. When that win button is painfully apparent a quarter of a way into the first playthrough, as in Bayonetta, I consider the game design to be “broken.” As I said before, this win button might not be true for higher difficulties, but I think one playthrough is more than enough of a fair chance, and I didn’t find anything in Bayonetta to make me want to play it again.
As for DMC 4, I’d love to discuss this game with a self proclaimed master! Unless I missed something, buster worked on Blitz only AFTER you lower its shields. Snatch was likewise useless when Blitz was charged up. Therefore, I had to do other attacks to whittle it down, and only then could it be bustered. Other enemies which didn’t allow for buster/snatch spamming are the angel knights (I forgot their names) and the infected scarecrows. As for the charged shots, whatever difficulty I played on during the first time, the enemies were NOT so passive that they just let me corner camp charged shots. And finally there’s Lucifer, which I unfortunately never played with much. I remember now trying to spam it, but the needles seems to disappear before they hit anything. Or maybe that delay was too long and I got hit anyways. Whatever the case, I seldom used Lucifer because I was using the Rebellion/Gilgamesh duo I learned so well in DMC 3.
Rex_Maximus said:
Uh...no. Charged shot and Pin up are not available to you at the beginning, so you obviously figure out they're broken in the first quarter of the game, but once you did get them, it's obvious how overpowered they are. As for Buster, its exploitability was obvious from the first 5 minutes. I discovered the trick against dante in my second fight (I died the first time). Scarecrows are all helpless against it, and it doesn't take long to expose how to buster protected enemies.
Rex_Maximus said:
You actually CAN mash Buster against the Angel Knights, as 3 busters break their shield (I think? It's been a while since I played, but I'm pretty sure it's 3) and allow them to be grabbed, and infected enemies simply need to be shot for 4 second before you buster mash them. To beat a Blitz, you just need to jump around randomly and shoot it until the shields are down (though it's much easier to use charge shot to bring him down), then buster it. You can chain up to 3 DT busters and kill him before he gets his shields back up. He's helplesss. So you have to sometimes do one exploitable move before doing another exploitable move. Yeah, I can definitely see how DMC4 is leagues above Bayonetta here.
![[face_rolling_eyes]](https://cdn.statically.io/img/www.ignboards.com/styles/ign/ign/smilies/classic/rollingeyes.gif "Rolling Eyes [face_rolling_eyes]")
This is very weak reasoning. By that logic, I can say that bayonetta sometimes requires you dodge enemy attacks, so you can't simply mash the safe combo like your claiming. It doesn't really matter though, the charged shot is infinitely more exploitable than the buster anyway, it kills everything at at most you just have to jump around before you can fire it off.Again, your mindset is the problem here. ALL action games have some sort of safe combo. The only reason you haven't found it in DMC4 is because it seems that utilizing more than a single action at a time seems to be out of your skill league, so you believe these elements that block you from mashing and makes the game difficult or skillful but any halfway competant player can use these things to break the game.
Edit: And seriously, you never thought "Well, since they disappear before they hit any enemies, it'd be better if I took them out NEAR the enemies rather than away from them. Or better yet, positioned myself close by so they embed themselvers as soon as I take them out."? You complain that Bayonetta is broken because it doesn't take much to beat the enemies, but from the way you describe your gameplay experiences in DMC4, you don't seem to do much other than press a button and if it doesn't automatically kill enemies, you abandon it, or claim that it's difficult to use.
Rex_Maximus said:
Also, seriously, watch that BAYONETTA COMBO MAD video again. How are you not s****ing your pants at the awesomeness?
@ Malcolm
I didn’t watch the video. As I said before, I don’t get hyped up over watch videos of combos (unless I want to learn to do them myself!) I’m at work now, but since you seem so insistent on its awesomeness, I’ll watch it when I get home. Also, I know the enemies in DMC 4 can be beaten pretty easily once you figure them out. However, this is still light years ahead of the difficulty I faced during me first (and only) playthrough of Bayonetta. In both DMC 3 and 4, I did not find a single omnipotent attack. Even in your examples, you have to do at least two things, often while dodging, some of the tougher DMC enemies and crowds. The same cannot be said for Bayonetta, where every single enemy encounter in Bayonetta can be cleared by spamming the light-light-heavy katana combo. Furthermore, by giving you a dodge button, Bayonetta greatly eased evasion as well. While this may not be true on harder levels, the fact remains that by the end of normal I was too uninterested in the game to suffer another playthrough.
P.S. I forgot bout the one boss which requires you to use a mounted turret.
I didn’t watch the video. As I said before, I don’t get hyped up over watch videos of combos (unless I want to learn to do them myself!) I’m at work now, but since you seem so insistent on its awesomeness, I’ll watch it when I get home. Also, I know the enemies in DMC 4 can be beaten pretty easily once you figure them out. However, this is still light years ahead of the difficulty I faced during me first (and only) playthrough of Bayonetta. In both DMC 3 and 4, I did not find a single omnipotent attack. Even in your examples, you have to do at least two things, often while dodging, some of the tougher DMC enemies and crowds. The same cannot be said for Bayonetta, where every single enemy encounter in Bayonetta can be cleared by spamming the light-light-heavy katana combo. Furthermore, by giving you a dodge button, Bayonetta greatly eased evasion as well. While this may not be true on harder levels, the fact remains that by the end of normal I was too uninterested in the game to suffer another playthrough.
P.S. I forgot bout the one boss which requires you to use a mounted turret.
Rex_Maximus said:
It's hard to take your criticisms of Bayonetta's combat system seriously when you admit to only playing it once on normal. I guarantee you 99% of the stuff I mentioned isn't necessary on DMC4's default "Normal" difficulty either, because on that difficulty you CAN just press triangle triangle triangle through all your encounters. The dodge argument is a pretty moot point too, as you can cancel out of most moves in DMC by jumping or rolling, both of which carry invincibility frames and carry the same purpose of dodging. Not that you'd really have to on Normal. But I find it hard to believe you didn't have to do some dodging yourself on Bayonetta's normal mode, else you wouldn't have brought it up.
Yes, not every one of Bayonetta's boss fights is a winner. But the same argument can be made for DMC4. If you can honestly fault Bayonetta while simultaneously ignoring the DMC4 mission 6 boss fight "THROW SWORDS AT WINDOW", there may be something wrong with you.
Your points are becoming increasingly cyclical and the inherent hypocrisy in your argument is becoming all too clear.
I'm not really sure why you're being so stubborn on this. Can't you just concede that both games have their exploitations but in either case it's really not the best way to play them (and thus not the standard by which the quality of their combat systems measured)?
My apologies in advance, this will be a long post so I'll hope you'll give me the courtesy of reading all of it if you intend to respond.Rex_Maximus said:
It seems to me that you don't really want play the game as it's meant to be played, which is fine, but at the same time you also insist that it must be because of poor design that you can get through the game with only a particular combo despite the fact that your rating would suffer.
Now I know you've mentioned that you believe the rating system is not enough of a reward/deterrant for you, but it seems that if that's the case then this is just not the game for you. There is an entire community out there who waited years for a game to be made EXACTLY like this. To have easy, intuitive controls and a combat system that while not challenging on a lower difficulty, allows players to challenge themselves. The rating system is there as a goal for players to maintain versatility and creativity in combat. If you don't want that then play another game as it's quite clear that the game wasn't designed with your requirements in mind. That still doesn't mean it's design is poor - Bayonetta was designed as it was intended, and the fact there is a big enough community for it is testament to that.
I don't like the structure of the GTA games, but I don't think it's poorly designed. I hate that Ninja Gaiden forces you to be supremely deadly or die, with no room for freeform combat and experimentation but I don't think that's poorly designed either.
In both cases many gamers who are fans of these franchises love them because they are designed this way.
Bottom line is, if you can't extract any fun from a game and have no desire to play it in any other way than the way you see fit, then you won't have any fun at all and you'll just be better off playing another game that does suit your needs.
I can't make you like this. No one can. But I don't agree with insisting that the game is poorly designed when there are enough people out there who have absolutely no issue with the design of the game - in fact they love that it's designed this way. The game (especially combat) is not poorly designed. It just wasn't designed for you.
As for Bayonetta's expression of her sexuality, I really don't think I've ever even thought enough about her as a character to care. Though I will freely admit to the following:
I actually like Bayonetta's design. I like her long legs and the shapely posterior. Despite what alot of people have said I don't find her appearance ugly or ridiculous, because I'm not using a real woman as a benchmark. I find her appearance to be both artistically and aesthetically pleasing - the details and proportions are unrealistic but I don't find anything disgusting or ugly about it. Hell, if my girlfriend put on a Bayonetta outfit I'd be all over her (more than usual anyway
). That being said, though I find Bayonetta to be sexy the character herself doesn't really arouse me or anything like that - it's not like I get wood when I look at her. In fact all of my observations regarding her physical appearance are from the cg and promo pics that were floating around the net. In the actual game I don't really take notice and I skip the cut scenes - I'm having way too much fun playing the game to be fixated on anything else. Then there is her actual behaviour and mannerisms - I always had the impression that's all for her enemies, not the player controlling her. She teases her enemies in what I can only equate to a highly feminised version of Dante's taunts. In both cases they revel in the fact that no one can touch them. You may not like how Bayonetta expresses her confidence with her sexuality but I don't really think there is any thing wrong with it per se. And really, like it or hate it, I don't think the game suffers because of it.
I'm not saying I want to necessarily see more characters exactly like Bayonetta in games but I myself am really sick of characters like Kratos, who is everything I despise about the alpha male stereotype. If Bayonetta was designed to target male gamers than God of War is no different for allowing the player to indulge in their idealogical alpha male fantasy. I think you should give gamers more credit to be able to judge and percieve things maturely, regardless of the content being presented to us. We're not all a bunch of oversexed teens you know.
I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with your arguments here, but I think you're beating a dead horse if you're actually trying to convince us that we're defending a poorly designed game. The game in it's entirety is not 100 percent flawless. There is the odd chapter that is unnecessary or too long, and some boss fights could have been better, but for every gamer out there who is a fan of this game, it has been designed with great care and attention to detail where it counts. That's why it has the community that it has.
Do me a favor and edit your reply into sizable chunks. You have 2 sections that are essentially bricks of text, and at the same time you misuse the enter key between single short sentences when you can easily combine them with the sentence you put below it. It makes the whole thing very difficult to read.
It does allow for free form combat if your good enough. I've learned enough to be able to beat pretty much any enemy with any weapon. It's a dial a combo system, with little cancel ability, so you can't switch from doing one thing to another like in DMC or Bayonetta, but you can definitely have some freedom. You just gotta earn it.
Using his logic, there is no 3D action game currently in existence that is well designed because they all have exploitive moves.
Edit to the below post: Much better. Thank you.
WinterSting said:
It does allow for free form combat if your good enough. I've learned enough to be able to beat pretty much any enemy with any weapon. It's a dial a combo system, with little cancel ability, so you can't switch from doing one thing to another like in DMC or Bayonetta, but you can definitely have some freedom. You just gotta earn it.
said:
Using his logic, there is no 3D action game currently in existence that is well designed because they all have exploitive moves.
Edit to the below post: Much better. Thank you.
swordslayer2278 said:
I made a quick edit. When I rant I get carried away - sorry.
Sorry for the delayed reply - I'm taking a holiday in Europe for a couple of weeks right now so haven't been spending much time online
And I'm not just talking about appearance, either. I've been rowing competitively since I was 13 (and ran competitively for five years before that) - I also love using my body physically. I've spent over a decade training it to move and function the way I want it to, and I'm the sort of person who'll sprint and cycle and climb and swim and yes, ****, for the sheer physical joy that exercise and movement bring me. Again, I see the same joy in her own athleticism and physical abilities in Bayonetta that I feel myself. Her moves aren't simply practical; she clearly revels in her own strengths and shows off because she can.
Bayonetta is a woman who loves her body, and is completely comfortable with her own sexual and physical power. That's what I like about her.
Edit: Okay, I just watched [link=http://boards.ign.com/bayonetta/b24351/189260374/p1/?4]this video[/link] and had to include this quote:
"Strippers dance for your benefit. Bayonetta doesn't appear to dance, or do anything else, for the enjoyment of anyone but herself."
I'm 25. I work full-time doing research in a chemistry lab for my PhD, so it's not practical for me to wear anything showy. My usual outfit is comfy jeans, a t-shirt, and an old baggy hoodie. To me, enjoying my sexuality doesn't necessarily mean showing off my body to other people - it means simply that I love it myself. And that's what I see in Bayonetta. I see her taunting angels and showing off even when she has no audience but herself. You think when she struts and poses in front of brainless minions that she's about to eviscerate, she's doing it for them?Rex_Maximus said:
And I'm not just talking about appearance, either. I've been rowing competitively since I was 13 (and ran competitively for five years before that) - I also love using my body physically. I've spent over a decade training it to move and function the way I want it to, and I'm the sort of person who'll sprint and cycle and climb and swim and yes, ****, for the sheer physical joy that exercise and movement bring me. Again, I see the same joy in her own athleticism and physical abilities in Bayonetta that I feel myself. Her moves aren't simply practical; she clearly revels in her own strengths and shows off because she can.
Bayonetta is a woman who loves her body, and is completely comfortable with her own sexual and physical power. That's what I like about her.
Edit: Okay, I just watched [link=http://boards.ign.com/bayonetta/b24351/189260374/p1/?4]this video[/link] and had to include this quote:
"Strippers dance for your benefit. Bayonetta doesn't appear to dance, or do anything else, for the enjoyment of anyone but herself."
kiera2 said:
While I agree with much of what you say, a stripper is simply someone who stripteases. It doesn't have to be for someone else, so Bayonetta does fall under the definition of a stripper. It's prostitutes who perform sex acts for someone else in return for something.
Decent games is created to enjoy the decent experiance.
But you'll always get one who has to comment on pointless things and doesn't like to accept defeat.
So Bayonetta 10/10, a game that devil may cry 4 should of been
Swordslayer. are you the dude i see now and then having epic debates with people, one i recall in the dmc board, with some user called Nero something?, or was that Swordmaster? ahh confuision.
Kiera your doing PHD? wow years has gone by quick last time we spoke you were a postgraduate.
I know im offtopic just don't ban my a**
But you'll always get one who has to comment on pointless things and doesn't like to accept defeat.
So Bayonetta 10/10, a game that devil may cry 4 should of been
Swordslayer. are you the dude i see now and then having epic debates with people, one i recall in the dmc board, with some user called Nero something?, or was that Swordmaster? ahh confuision.
Kiera your doing PHD? wow years has gone by quick last time we spoke you were a postgraduate.
I know im offtopic just don't ban my a**
swordslayer2278 said:
Bayonetta doesn't striptease as it were, who exactly is she stripteasing to? She simply dances and has fun. Strippers strip for money, Bayonetta doesn't do anything like that for anyone but herself. It's certainly not for money or the benefit of others.
Ryan6192 said:
I believe so. It was about Nero's character and how he's possibly a sociopath? If so, yes, that was me. I don't spend much time around IGN anymore though. Neogaf is where I usually go now.
Dante86dmc said:
A [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striptease]striptease[/link] (or, if you hate wikipedia, use [link=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/striptease]this[/link]) is simply a dance where the performer removes their clothing. It doesn't necessarily have to be for money or anyone else. And given the number of times that bayonetta's clothes fly off whenever she engages in such dancing, particularly the music video at the end, what she does can definitely fall under the definition of stripteasing. Thus, Bayonetta is a stripper.
swordslayer2278 said:
Doesn't her clothing usually only come off when she is performing some sort of magical act or summoning? I guess the dance at the end could count and I get what you're saying but I never really looked at it that way.