ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Wow, you really just don't seem to be able to have fun with anything
![[face_tongue]](https://cdn.statically.io/img/www.ignboards.com/styles/ign/ign/smilies/classic/stickouttongue.gif "Stick Out Tongue [face_tongue]")
I think it's an incredibly interesting idea. Anyway, I don't love it in execution either, assuming it's true. But I think it's mostly because the dealership doesn't have quite enough cars, and it doesn't cycle fast enough. It would be a difficult system to get right, because you'd have to offer few enough of each car that they don't get stuck just sitting there in the dealership forever, but also enough for everyone who wants one, to get the chance to buy one. And that would obviously depend on the expected popularity of each vehicle. Like, I'm not buying any of the ones that are newer than 2001, because the discounts on them aren't quite enough for me to justify buying it right away, when I can just buy it from Brand Central. But there are also several cars that I really want, that it's a bit frustrating to wait for, since it's nowhere near as fast as in GT5 and 4.
That being said, if what GT says is accurate, it's not true. That's just what I'd seen being spread, and it made sense considering the cars you'd expect to be more popular seem to go faster, and the ones that aren't, tend to just sit there. Anecdotal of course, but I'm fairly certain that some cars have gone quite a bit faster than others. And like... I personally don't see why it would change out every real world day, and only change so few cars (let alone let them just be freely purchase-able in bulk), if it was just time-based. Yet another thing where I'm curious where the information saying it's purely timed is coming from.
No, I've stated I still enjoy the racing in the game, the issue is I took a break from gran turismo, and played a lot of other Sims.Wow, you really just don't seem to be able to have fun with anything
I think it's an incredibly interesting idea. Anyway, I don't love it in execution either, assuming it's true. But I think it's mostly because the dealership doesn't have quite enough cars, and it doesn't cycle fast enough. It would be a difficult system to get right, because you'd have to offer few enough of each car that they don't get stuck just sitting there in the dealership forever, but also enough for everyone who wants one, to get the chance to buy one. And that would obviously depend on the expected popularity of each vehicle. Like, I'm not buying any of the ones that are newer than 2001, because the discounts on them aren't quite enough for me to justify buying it right away, when I can just buy it from Brand Central. But there are also several cars that I really want, that it's a bit frustrating to wait for, since it's nowhere near as fast as in GT5 and 4.
That being said, if what GT says is accurate, it's not true. That's just what I'd seen being spread, and it made sense considering the cars you'd expect to be more popular seem to go faster, and the ones that aren't, tend to just sit there. Anecdotal of course, but I'm fairly certain that some cars have gone quite a bit faster than others. And like... I personally don't see why it would change out every real world day, and only change so few cars (let alone let them just be freely purchase-able in bulk), if it was just time-based. Yet another thing where I'm curious where the information saying it's purely timed is coming from.
I've seen how good this game could, and should be. It's frustrating to see a great racing engine attached to what feels like such out dated ideas, that everyone else does better.
Most of it I could forgive and move on from, if it wasn't for the damn single file rolling starts...
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ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
The rolling starts are super ridiculous, yes. But I would hardly argue "everyone else" does all this stuff better. Most sims barely have most of these features, are really poorly optimized, and have almost no single player structure, design, or balance to begin with.
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Have you ever played anything not gran turismo?
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Of course I have. *rolls eyes* I've been playing sims since around 2002 or so. I've played every GT, and played every one from GT3 onwards all the way through (as well as hundreds and hundreds of extra hours in each). I've played older stuff that didn't go anywhere like Enthusia, some of the old TOCA games, Dirt Rally 1 and 2, Dirt 4 if you count that, every Forza Motorsport, the old Colin McRae games if you count those, Assetto Corsa, AC Competizione, Project Cars 1 and 2, and I've dabbled in/messed around with a lot of the more 'hardcore' ones like iRacing, RFactor, etc. And that's just sims (not other racing games), and off of the top of my head.
Not sure why you have to default to the idea that I'm just some GT hermit/fanboy that's trying to hide the fact that he doesn't play any other sims. You could've just as easily asked "I'm curious which sims you have experience with that aren't GT?". Not that hard, bro.
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That wasn't intended as an insult, just a legitimate question, most my posts are made in between tasks at work, I'm not putting that much thought into them.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Well regardless, yes. I've played a lot, of a lot of sims. And most of them today (and many back in the day) are anemic at best when it comes to car selection, customization, career variety, tertiary systems like educational tools, photo modes, ways to obtain cars (used lots, economies for purchasing cars in-game), etc. Most of them (on console at least) struggle to reach and maintain 60fps, and look a generation older than games like GT and Forza. Most of them have painfully dull UI's and an awful UX. A few of them are far more predatory. None of them have the emphasis on car culture and history in the same way.
The only one that I'd say compares across the board to GT is Forza Motorsport. But that one is also the least sim of the bunch, and also tends to throw so many cars at players and give you so much freedom in the career, that the structure and pacing falls apart.
That's not to say a lot of the other sims don't have upsides, or do a handful of things better here and there. And I still like them. GT7 also has a fair amount of pretty frustrating faults. But most other sims are so clinical, and so focused on online racing, that -physics and the actual simulation aside- they come across as alphas, or early access titles. They feel as low budget as they often are. Which is fine. But that's also very worth noting, and keeping in mind.
And holy hell, you wanna talk about evil, anti-consumer business practices, Project Cars as a series is the one you look to. Or iRacing. I'd also say Forza, but that was really only during Forza 5 and early Forza 6, which F5 was almost a decade ago at this point.
The only one that I'd say compares across the board to GT is Forza Motorsport. But that one is also the least sim of the bunch, and also tends to throw so many cars at players and give you so much freedom in the career, that the structure and pacing falls apart.
That's not to say a lot of the other sims don't have upsides, or do a handful of things better here and there. And I still like them. GT7 also has a fair amount of pretty frustrating faults. But most other sims are so clinical, and so focused on online racing, that -physics and the actual simulation aside- they come across as alphas, or early access titles. They feel as low budget as they often are. Which is fine. But that's also very worth noting, and keeping in mind.
And holy hell, you wanna talk about evil, anti-consumer business practices, Project Cars as a series is the one you look to. Or iRacing. I'd also say Forza, but that was really only during Forza 5 and early Forza 6, which F5 was almost a decade ago at this point.
Personally I'd say forza has had better careers than "go to Cafe to be told your next 2 or 3 races" I'd also say forza motorsports is a good Sim once you turn off the aids, the game built for anyone to learn though.
I've only played the first project cars, and over all enjoyed it, especially in VR, outside of it's lack of car selection. Iracing I'll agree is very predatory, and that's the exact reason I quit playing it..
Not sure how you'd see forza as doing anything predatory though? They're offered car packs for reasonable prices, but also alow you to simply buy individual cars for a couple of dollars if you don't want the full pack. I think the most I spent was 20 or 25 for a large porche expansion pack.
Gt7 currently pushes you to buy credits, doing the math, some individual cars could cost 30 to 40 dollars.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Well firstly, I don't remember which one (I think it was Forza 5) started with a really predatory economy, that they had to update to fix. It was payouts and such that were highly skewed, because they too had a 'press this button to top up your credits' thing. They'd ratcheted payouts waaaaay down, and then done the very, very rudimentary version of the modern Wheelspin as compensation, but the wheelspins didn't ever land on anything valuable. It was kind of like GT7, but quite a bit worse.
But the thing that both Forza 5 and 6 did that was far more predatory, was related to the cars that were cut between Forza 4 and 5 in order to meet the Xbox One launch. I don't mind, and even understand them cutting back on content for that reason. They had to make everything from scratch. What I do mind, is the fact that they then were selling a lot of these cars back to you individually for around $5 or whatever, and had specifically cherrypicked a lot of cars that were highly sought after, like Supras and shit for this. Instead of putting those cars in packs, or adding them for free, they made it so that a lot of those highly demanded cars (that the previous game launched with, and that cost basically no credits there) now had to be bought individually, with real money. They were effectively nickel and diming people for the cars that they wanted the most. And not an insubstantial amount either, considering GT Sport offered most of its cars (which you could earn all of them in-game still) for $0.99 or $1.99.
Contrast that with GT, which has historically added 90% of its post-launch content for free, which as far as they've said, is continuing in GT7. Just GT Sport alone gave us 156 new cars and 53 extra track layouts for free, not to mention the whole ass career, I'm pretty sure they added more Scapes photos, etc. Like one can debate the value of 'adding a career that should've been there at launch' or whatever junk. But the point still stands that Forza at that time might've charged for that, and GT didn't. GT has historically given a looooot of its content away for free. Also, it's pretty misleading that everyone is talking about the 'cost to buy the most expensive cars' in GT7. Casual players on YT and such that are talking about this are even branding the most expensive cars as 'the best cars in the game'. But... you and I both know that most of the cars that are 10 million credits+ are not the best cars in the game. Nor are they even close to the most sought after by players. Most of the cars people actually want are within the 30k to 350k range. And we also know that once you have a GT4, or GT3, or Le Mans car or whatever, you don't need another one. That's not a water tight excuse or anything. But the media coverage is acting like you have to buy dozens of 20 million credit cars just to keep up, or even finish the game, let alone to be competitive online. But heck... the fastest viable race cars in the game are only around 1 million credits. The economy in the game is heavily skewed toward valuable cars being cheap. I'd be willing to bet two thirds of the most wanted cars are less than 350k credits. That matters when discussing the balance of the economy in-game. And that's to say nothing about the fact that completing the career literally gives you a quarter of all of the cars the game launched with... for free; you don't even have to spend credits. You just complete career races, missions, and licenses.
As for the difference in quality with the careers, Forza's is definitely the most comparable to GTs. It's basically the only other series that really tries to at least make a substantial career. I'd say they're both about even, but they're still both below the bar by quite a bit. It's just that everyone else is so far below the bar that you can't even see them. And hopefully Forza will do something much more substantial with this new reboot...thing. But by and large, just like GT, Forza careers are all just set-dressing slapped on the same formula we've been using since GT started 25 years ago; here is a static list of races... do them. Sure, Forza 'spices it up' these days, by picking somewhat randomly from that giant list of races. But it's still just mundane checklist grinding, with little deviation. I talk a whole lot about that in my video on creating what I feel would be the ultimate sim racing career, if you're interested:
And finally, while I'm not one of those pretentious people who tries to argue GT and Forza are 'simcade' games, Forza is definitely the closest of the sims to that moniker, in terms of the physics simulation and design. And yeah, it does an okay job of accommodating for players of varying skill levels, with comprehensive assists, accessibility, and difficulty options. But, I also think -just like everyone except for GT- it does basically nothing to teach players. It's a 'give a man a fish/teach a man to fish' situation, where Forza kind of allows players to turn the game into a more arcade-like experience, but if you wanna go without assists and on higher difficulties, you're gonna have to learn to play from outside sources. Meanwhile, GT has always focused heavily on teaching players to play sim racers, with comprehensive missions, challenges, license tests, demonstrations, explanations, etc. I strongly believe that's the main reason GT even created the sim racing boom, and why it stuck around in the mainstream, instead of dipping into being niche like every other sim racer... because it taught idiots like me how to play, so that I didn't get so frustrated that I just gave up.
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ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Anyone able to beat that new Tokyo Expressway 600 race yet? I'm having a tough time finding a car that will keep up, but also grip well enough in the early wet to get good exits.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Sorry for the double post. I got it. 2017 GT-R, with almost nothing done to it outside of an LSD. Was all about being careful, and maximizing fuel efficiency, which I suppose is to be expected.
Just did the Tsukuba/MX-5 Endurance Race. It's the first time I've felt like I had all the tools at my disposal to win in a sim endurance race against AI (in any game), and still felt like I lost for legitimate reasons. The weather radar really changes things, since it's no longer about guessing and memorization.
I lost; got 8th. It was wonderful. I think these will legit be difficult if you don't just look up optimal builds for optimal cars. Speaking of, time to tune! Wanna try and see if I can get my average lap in the dry to at least a 58, and a best below 57.7, since that's what the AI did at best in the dry.
Just did the Tsukuba/MX-5 Endurance Race. It's the first time I've felt like I had all the tools at my disposal to win in a sim endurance race against AI (in any game), and still felt like I lost for legitimate reasons. The weather radar really changes things, since it's no longer about guessing and memorization.
I lost; got 8th. It was wonderful. I think these will legit be difficult if you don't just look up optimal builds for optimal cars. Speaking of, time to tune! Wanna try and see if I can get my average lap in the dry to at least a 58, and a best below 57.7, since that's what the AI did at best in the dry.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Okay, I've finished the first four endurances. Pretty fun. I won the third one by only 1.6 seconds. They've all been generally rewarding.
Also, for the fourth one at Kyoto Driving Park, I'd recommend the Alfa 4C Gr.3 Road Car if you just want a super easy time. Was still a fun drive, but if you add parts like the racing flywheel, brakes, pads, diff and such, but not any power modifiers, and then drop your power down to just below 550 requirement, it stomps really hard. Fuel lasts forever, Sports Hards last forever, and you're still going to be faster than everyone per lap.
Also, for the fourth one at Kyoto Driving Park, I'd recommend the Alfa 4C Gr.3 Road Car if you just want a super easy time. Was still a fun drive, but if you add parts like the racing flywheel, brakes, pads, diff and such, but not any power modifiers, and then drop your power down to just below 550 requirement, it stomps really hard. Fuel lasts forever, Sports Hards last forever, and you're still going to be faster than everyone per lap.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
So... nobody else is gonna post? Lololol.
Beat the rest of the endurances. The last one is just plain a raw race. No real tricks as far as I can tell. You just have to drive fast, ultra consistent, and pit smart. Pretty difficult, but really rewarding.
The one that's the most difficult I'd argue though -if you don't use tricks- is definitely the Alsace one with the pre-1970's vehicles.
Beat the rest of the endurances. The last one is just plain a raw race. No real tricks as far as I can tell. You just have to drive fast, ultra consistent, and pit smart. Pretty difficult, but really rewarding.
The one that's the most difficult I'd argue though -if you don't use tricks- is definitely the Alsace one with the pre-1970's vehicles.
...I've kinda given up on GT7 for the moment. Needs to make a fair few changes before I feel like I'm not playing a time sink.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Did you mention the details of your frustrations already? I can't recall.
If it's the economy, that was drastically changed last week.
If it's the economy, that was drastically changed last week.
I know it has, but now I'm really only left with the circuit experience to keep me occupied and the circuit times for gold are superhuman.
I'm up to S7 for the license, I need ideal lighting conditions to do that one at Laguna Seca any good 'cos I'm blind, it was the first test I failed to reach the bronze time on first completion.
I think yesterday I completed the Camaro cafe requirement thing and only just unlocked the Legends showroom.
//also just got the Carrera GT with the invitations open for seemingly everything in Europe
I think yesterday I completed the Camaro cafe requirement thing and only just unlocked the Legends showroom.
//also just got the Carrera GT with the invitations open for seemingly everything in Europe
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Ahhh, gotcha. Totally understandable. Some of them took me hours, lol. Well, I hope you can find the changes you're looking for
@woody938 Ahh, gotcha. I have an HDR display (a cheap one) so my TV actually reads better with the lights off now. But I also just got new glasses, so I can actually see again
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
So I figured it was worth mentioning that if you're after all the Trophies, two cars that should work for the "Three Legendary Cars" Trophy are available right now; the 787B, and the XJR-9 (I'm also gonna grab the R92CP since it's available). Probably worth grabbing them while you can, since they're not particularly expensive.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Okay, I can serve as proof that the above cars indeed do not work for the Three Legendary Cars trophy. While the 787B and XJR-9 meet the criteria of the trophy's description, the trophy is indeed looking for three specific cars, not any three cars that have won 24 hour races. I bought the Ferrari 330 P4 after having purchased those two vehicles, and the trophy didn't unlock.
So it is now confirmed thanks to other people who have unlocked said trophy, that it's a nod to the Dream Race trophy in GT5, meaning the cars have to be the Ferrari 330 P4, the Jaguar XJ13, and the Ford Mark IV.
So it is now confirmed thanks to other people who have unlocked said trophy, that it's a nod to the Dream Race trophy in GT5, meaning the cars have to be the Ferrari 330 P4, the Jaguar XJ13, and the Ford Mark IV.
Ok...where to start.....forza individual cars weren't 5 dollars....they were typically I think around 2ish dollars? Entire car packs were around 9 or 10(with exception to the porche pack), after they gave out several free car packs. The issue with GT7 is the push for buying credits. Car prices feeling a bit high will encourage that, like, why does an 80s porche 911 cost virtually the same as a new porche 911? (Both around 230k if I remember right.)
As for what players want? That's subjective. Personally I don't care for supercars.....fun to play with, not so much to race....but others seem to like to race those. They should be obtainable in a game, at a reasonable pace. Not sure if they've fixed that with the recent update, haven't had much time lately...just looked at car prices and did a bit of license work. Prices still feel a bit steep, but maybe they fixed pay outs.
As for games forza or gt, just giving cars for playing career, that really doesn't effect me much, I don't care what a game gives me, I want specific cars typically, or some times I just want to grab a car to mess with, that's the fun of the racing Sim, playing with cars I'll never be able to own. Other sims do a better job of allowing that, specifically Forza.
Also....forza wouldn't charge for a career...as they've never released a game with out one.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
Car prices 'feeling' high and being high are two very different things. Car prices by and large are basically the same as they've been since GT5, as is the rate at which you earn credits. And actually, since update 1.11, your ability to earn credits has skyrocketed far past any previous game. It doesn't really push players to buy credits.
Also, the supercars aren't generally particularly expensive either. They too are around the same prices as they've been since GT5, if not even cheaper, like in the case of the Zonda R as an example. It's only some of the legendary vehicles that are more expensive than usual; many by as little as like 15% or less. Some are actually slightly cheaper than in previous games as well. And most of the 10-20 million credit cars have been this way since GT5. There isn't anything substantially different here. I genuinely just think people feel that way, because GT Sport's most lucrative exploits earned players more money than any game before that (and you didn't have to spend money on parts), and because most of the sim racing competition now either hand out way more credits, as I've previously mentioned with Forza, or don't even allow players to own cars at all, like in Project Cars or Assetto Corsa.
Particularly if you're going into GT expecting to accrue cars over time -as has always been the intent; it's not supposed to be Pokemon- getting pretty much every car most people will want to play with isn't by any means infeasible, even simply by getting Gold on all of the launch day content.
I haven't spent a dime of real money, and I haven't really grinded much at all. And yet I only need like 136 cars left or something like that. Most of those are GT cars and Le Mans cars (which you don't generally need more of if you already have one, since the regulations are tight enough), and VGT cars. I own every single road car in Brand Central, including all of the supercars. Just 35 of the cars I need left are in the Used/Legends dealership. Yes, that means a few of the remaining cars I need are exceedingly expensive. But nearly all of the expensive ones are also novelty cars, like that Alfa Romeo 8C. And over the 4 or 5 year lifespan this game will have if it's anything like the last three, it won't be difficult at all to obtain them over time. The point being, the economy was previously balanced more or less like every other GT economy. And now it's balanced to be so lucrative that I could very well own every single car in the game by the end of the year, by casually playing off and on for the next 8 months. Now, I own basically everything I could ever want, not long after launch.
Also, the supercars aren't generally particularly expensive either. They too are around the same prices as they've been since GT5, if not even cheaper, like in the case of the Zonda R as an example. It's only some of the legendary vehicles that are more expensive than usual; many by as little as like 15% or less. Some are actually slightly cheaper than in previous games as well. And most of the 10-20 million credit cars have been this way since GT5. There isn't anything substantially different here. I genuinely just think people feel that way, because GT Sport's most lucrative exploits earned players more money than any game before that (and you didn't have to spend money on parts), and because most of the sim racing competition now either hand out way more credits, as I've previously mentioned with Forza, or don't even allow players to own cars at all, like in Project Cars or Assetto Corsa.
Particularly if you're going into GT expecting to accrue cars over time -as has always been the intent; it's not supposed to be Pokemon- getting pretty much every car most people will want to play with isn't by any means infeasible, even simply by getting Gold on all of the launch day content.
I haven't spent a dime of real money, and I haven't really grinded much at all. And yet I only need like 136 cars left or something like that. Most of those are GT cars and Le Mans cars (which you don't generally need more of if you already have one, since the regulations are tight enough), and VGT cars. I own every single road car in Brand Central, including all of the supercars. Just 35 of the cars I need left are in the Used/Legends dealership. Yes, that means a few of the remaining cars I need are exceedingly expensive. But nearly all of the expensive ones are also novelty cars, like that Alfa Romeo 8C. And over the 4 or 5 year lifespan this game will have if it's anything like the last three, it won't be difficult at all to obtain them over time. The point being, the economy was previously balanced more or less like every other GT economy. And now it's balanced to be so lucrative that I could very well own every single car in the game by the end of the year, by casually playing off and on for the next 8 months. Now, I own basically everything I could ever want, not long after launch.
I'm gonna stick with the prices seem high, as nothing you said addressed the fact that used cars can cost as much as a new car.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
There have always been used cars that cost as much or more than new cars, across every game in the series that had used dealerships. And your bottom line is purely just a semantics argument anyway, because economic balance isn't about arbitrary goalposts like 'used cars should cost less than new cars just because'. If we're gonna say the prices are high, they should probably actually be high.
Let's say these cars weren't used. Let's say instead it was like GT6, where every car was brand new, so they had the same prices, but ese cars were instead priced that way because they were classics. That makes it clear that the only thing changing is your subjective perspective on them being used VS new, because mechanically, the used cars are identical to if they instead had 0 miles and were in Brand Central. If the car is the same, and the price is the same, but the label being different makes you feel different, that's an illusion.
Which is perfectly valid. But it doesn't actually effect the economic balance of the game. Forza makes super old, but rare or special cars often more expensive than modern models too. They're just not 'used'; that's the only difference. I would agree with your personal perspective honestly, if you actually had to refresh engines, body rigidity, and change the oil of the used cars right after you bought them with high mileage, despite the already higher prices. Because then you'd be getting a lesser vehicle, for needlessly high prices. To balance that, they'd instead want to offer ones in different shape to purchase, at different prices. That way you could make a conscious, strategic economic choice between a cheaper used version of the car that's in worse shape, or a more expensive one that's pristine.
Designing a game economy is about striking a balance between average vehicle costs, average earnings per x amount of average game time, average difficulty in achieving those earnings, and the general demand for specific cars VS their prices. Striking a balance between these factors is what matters if we're to decide what's expensive and what isn't.
Okay. Let me make this clear, I do not care stay previous gt games did. I'm not playing gt5, or gt6, or gt sport. In playing gt7.
I don't need 3 paragraphs to understand what's expensive. I just need to play the game and see the prices. I've done that. The prices seem high to me. I'm not sure why you feel so obsessed with arguing otherwise.
ZaXoFF7
No Longer a Noob
I personally do care about what previous GT games did, because that helps inform their intentions with the economic design. I should be allowed to invoke that in my responses, dude. Particularly when, if something in the past was designed the same way, but a player feels different about it now, they should probably then start thinking about why it feels different to them when it's actually not. A lot of liking or disliking something comes down to how you approach it, right?
Regardless, I'm not saying you have to be okay with the prices. I have never once argued in any of these conversations, that you have to be okay with, or not okay with anything about the game's design. And I am not trying to change your opinions, or get you to conform to mine. I'm having a conversation where we happen to disagree, and I'm sharing why I feel the way I do, lol. So I'm verbose. Get over it?
Maybe if you don't want to risk someone disagreeing with you, think about whether you feel it's worth your time to have that conversation before you post your opinions. Or let someone know when they engage with your post, that you aren't interested in talking about it. Because I come to forums to explore and discuss games, whether I agree or disagree with those around me... I'm not interested in just shouting opinions into the void, and getting no response. These are literally places built around conversation. And I'm perfectly allowed to try and engage with others opinions, particularly if they keep engaging with mine like you have. It's not 'obsession', lol. It's conversation, lololol.
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