This game looks retarded. Just my opinion. I prefer a smidgen of realism, thats not to say I dont like escapist fare, but there's a line and this game crossed it miles ago.
Ill pass thanks.
Ill pass thanks.
Bayonetta: Rediscovering the Beauty of Combat
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I can't believe people are arguing over freedom of speach on a game thread. Get a life.
yes kiera2 that is the main excuse people always use when trampling on freedom of speech, "freedom of speech does not apply to privately owned, etc. etc." but when every piece of media in our nation is privately owned, from newspapers, to magazines, to television shows, internet sites, and on and on, you eventually end up with viewpoint discrimination on a mass scale that completely undermines our constitution and bill of rights. as a christian you can't expect me to not be mildly offended, though definitely not surprised, about a game that stars a witch who kills angels and uses their halo's to purchase stuff at the gates of hell, can you? and if it was reversed to the point of being a christian apostle killing supernatural pagan witches, and using their pointy hats to purchase stuff at the gates of heaven, every video game site on the planet would be a lot less kind to a mediocre game don't you agree? and i wouldn't want to play a game like that, because i love freedom of religion as much as i love freedom of speech, and i would never want to trivialize anybodies most cherished beliefs no matter how much i disagreed with them. but this is a free country, make whatever games you want, buy whatever games you want, but please defend my right to my opinions, and i'll equally defend your right to your opinions. anything else is a slippery slope to tyranny indeed. shoot, the next thing you'll know, they'll be passing laws that completely undermine our constitution and bill of rights, and they'd even probably put nice sounding names on them, like george washington, or patriot act..., err.., that rings a bell, and it sure isn't the liberty bell.
Whose nation? I'm an Australian/British citizen living in Japan.kerndaddy said:
Freedom of speech means you are free to hold and express opinions without interference. But freedom of speech does not give you the right to commandeer any privately-owned method of disseminating those opinions. Freedom of speech, for example, does not give you the right to demand airtime on any TV station whenever you want to tell people about something. IGN has the right to decide exactly what they want to allow said on their forums, and you agree to their rules every time you click the post button.
That's all academic here though - as I said, I'd be more than up for a discussion of depictions of religion in video games. I'm not saying you can't talk about those sorts of things, just pointing out that a) freedom of speech does not apply in this situation, and b) I think it's a little naive to expect serious philosophical debate in the comment thread for an action game with a terrible plot and paper-thin mythology.
And for the record, I gave a serious response to your initial question and you ignored it. Although the game's mythology is clearly based on Christianity, the 'Angels' are just as clearly not the sentient peaceful beings of light of Christian orthodoxy. They're (for the most part) mindless beasts, no different at all to the demons of Devil May Cry. And (spoilers) [hl=black]the "Light" side in this game is actually trying to destroy all of reality as we know it[/hl].
I'd have a problem with hunting down and killing pagan witches because killing sentient humans is a whole other kettle of fish. Unless you're talking about a game where, say, some kind of monsters/demons disguise themselves as 'witches' and you have to go around as a Christian priest exorcising and destroying them. That'd be pretty cool.
Out of interest, did the Devil May Cry series offend you? What about the anime Neon Genesis Evangelion, if you've seen it? Are you offended by all fiction that borrows from Christian beliefs? Dan Brown?
And as a final point, having played the game twice through now, I'd say the action is anything but mediocre.
look i'm sorry that in your country you don't have any rights not given to you by your government keira2, but in america our rights don't come from man, they come from god, and they are protected by our constitution, and that is protected by our guns. i mistook you for an american, i apologise for that, but how can i hold an honest discussion with you about freedom of speech when it is something you don't have, and obviously something you don't want? you're to quick to defend those who would trample on your views because they are unpopular, and by doing so you supply the means of your own enslavement. first they took your guns, and then they took your video games, what are they going to take from you next? whatever they want, and the whole time they're doing it you'll be attacking americans for daring to stand up for rights that you will never have. if i am offended by a game because of it's obvious disrespect of my religion, then i'll shout it from the roof tops if i want too. and if somebody is offended by my views on this game, then let them shout it from the roof tops if they want too. but i will say this, i would defend their right to that viewpoint any day, to prevent the chains of slavery being slipped over us both in the guise of protecting ones sensibilities, unlike you who is obviously engaged in an attempt to get my posts deleted because you disagree with my opinion, and in so doing, you help ensure that austrailia, the land of lions and heroes in world war 2, becomes a land where the only acceptable opinion is big brothers.
Well said, kerndaddy. While I don't agree with you about the game (It's one of my most anticipated games, actually), I must say that you have the freedom of speech issue pegged. I'm an American and a Christian but even if I were Australian and an Atheist, I wouldn't be able to stomach the idea that my rights as an individual come from the government.
I can't come down too hard on the rest of the world if they don't know our history that well because the vast majority of Americans are ignorant to the histories of other nations. Make no mistake, this saddens me. However, I find it interesting that we are so quickly written off by the rest of the world. We're so young and so successful (at least by comparison now) you would think that other nations would want to see what made us thrive and perhaps even borrow our model. Instead, it seems like we're disparaged on the grounds of juvenile jealousy of our ability to get things done.
That said, our government has foolishly caved to the point of being obsessed with what the rest of the world thinks of us. So much so that I don't know what America will look like in four years, or God forbid, eight.
In the end, the underlying issue is the decision between two philosphies. You either think that individuals make a nation thrive, or government does. Far too many people in too many nations have willingly put the noose of government around their necks and have passively watched the rope tighten.
I can't come down too hard on the rest of the world if they don't know our history that well because the vast majority of Americans are ignorant to the histories of other nations. Make no mistake, this saddens me. However, I find it interesting that we are so quickly written off by the rest of the world. We're so young and so successful (at least by comparison now) you would think that other nations would want to see what made us thrive and perhaps even borrow our model. Instead, it seems like we're disparaged on the grounds of juvenile jealousy of our ability to get things done.
That said, our government has foolishly caved to the point of being obsessed with what the rest of the world thinks of us. So much so that I don't know what America will look like in four years, or God forbid, eight.
In the end, the underlying issue is the decision between two philosphies. You either think that individuals make a nation thrive, or government does. Far too many people in too many nations have willingly put the noose of government around their necks and have passively watched the rope tighten.
you're absolutely right nitrostar7, our public education system is putting out kids who have no idea about any other nations history, and the scariest thing is, a lot of them, if not most, don't even know our own history. though i wouldn't buy this game, i would never deny it's or any other games right to exist, because i know we all have different tastes. now if you'll excuse me, gamestop is holding two copies of modern warfare 2 for me and the wife! hopefully the next time i come up for air i'll have a gold cross.
kerndaddy said:
Mate, I'm the only one here who's honestly tried to address the topic you feel is being so unjustly trampled. Seems you're just trolling for a fight and pushing whatever buttons you think will get a reaction. Now I'm The Man and trying to control your thoughts? If I did want your posts deleted, I would have deleted them long ago.
I mentioned the IGN [link=http://boards.ign.com/spirituality_religion_and_faith_board/b6827/p1]Spirituality, Religion and Faith Board[/link] earlier; we have some great discussions about religion there, and I'm sure the regulars would be interested in a topic about depictions of religion in the media (and Bayonetta specifically). You're also more than welcome to continue the discussion here, of course, if and when you feel like replying to my comments on it. I just think you'd find more people who, like me, are interested in a discussion of double standards with respect to Christianity over at SRF.
No-one's saying any such thing. kendaddy is ranting about something barely relevant. As I said, if I were going to delete his posts to "trample on his views" I would have done so already. I'm just pointing out that he misunderstands the meaning of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech has no bearing on a privately owned company's right to regulate the content of its own website. As I said, try walking into a major TV station and demanding they give you airtime to voice your opinions - freedom of speech will not get it for you.nitrostar7 said:
keira i have addressed your comments, just because you don't like how i've adressed them is your problem not mine. what i have come to the conclusion of is that we are not going to ever agree on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree ok? don't get angry and accuse me of ranting because the conversation hasn't gone the way you wanted it to. by admitting to me that it would not be exceptable for the roles to be reversed in this game, you have proven my point. what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. but as an american who knows very much what freedom of speech means, i find it laughable that you would presume to lecture me on freedom of speech, while at the same time, twice saying in one post that if you wanted to delete my post you would. just because somebody has a technical legal right to remove a post that offends their sensibilities, doesn't mean they have the moral right to do so, and that's the difference that in your anger you refuse to understand. i made one comment about this game and was attacked by several people for it, but i let it go, finally after enough people slammed me i replied, and you call that trolling and looking for a fight? if that is the case, you are just as guilty of trolling as me are you not? and as for the ign spirituality, religion, and faith board, thanks for the invite, but i'm really not interested, especially on the day modern warfare 2 comes out.
You haven't really explained why you think this is a double standard, though. Is it the fact that in Bayonetta we kill the monsters based on the "good" guys of Christianity? Does a game like Devil May Cry, where we kill demons to protect the earth appeal to your Christian sensibilities? Because despite being nominally the "Light" side, the enemies in Bayonetta are acting to [hl=black]destroy the known universe, just like the demons in Devil May Cry[/hl]. They may be called angels, but they are clearly not the Angels of Christian orthodoxy; I don't see how simply borrowing words from Christianity to create the game's mythology is so offensive.kerndaddy said:
And are you really saying you see no difference between a game where you kill monsters that are called "Angels", and one where you hunt down and murder human women? As I said, I think I'd quite enjoy a game where you go around as a Christian witch-hunter trying to expose and destroy demons taking human form as 'witches'. That I would see as equivalent to something like Bayonetta. But a game where you go around hunting and murdering human witches would be equivalent to a game where you hunt down and murder human priests, which is not what Bayonetta is. You're drawing a false comparison.
This is exactly my point - you'll notice I still haven't deleted anythingkerndaddy said:
I see no reason to do so and think you've brought up an interesting point. As I said earlier, my point that freedom of speech does not apply to a privately-owned website is purely academic. I have no intention of preventing you from talking about the way "angels" are depicted in Bayonetta.What I call trolling though is your poorly concealed attempts to get a rise out of me by insulting my country, my morals and my intelligence whenever I point out that you're trying to invoke freedom of speech where it does not apply.
Perhaps I should clarify, kiera. I wasn't saying that you believed your rights came from the government. I was simply saying that if I were a different nationality and didn't believe in God, I still wouldn't think that my rights came from someone else, powerful or not. I wasn't commenting on any one person aside from myself. If you are an Atheist, then I can understand why you believed it to be directed at you.
With that out of the way, kiera has made an excellent point regarding the false comparison. I'm not going to tell you that you're stupid for being offended by Bayonetta but I certainly don't agree, either. To me, it seems like harmless, albeit over the top, fun. Sure, the primary protagonist serves the powers of Darkness but as far as story telling goes, that makes for a compelling character, does it not? Her power comes with the ultimate price. She has doomed herself to eternity in Hell, never to see Paradise.
My point is that you have to have crisis. You have to have struggle, conflict, heavy consequences for heavy actions, etc. I'd wager that if I were writing the story for this hypothetical game about witch hunting, I'd find it a lot more compelling to write about a flawed priest having trouble reconciling his faith with the fact that it seems evil is everywhere, winning all the time. Faith is a strong force but it is often tested. I'd like to see him run into battle with little more than a rosary, a sword, and a Bible opened to the Book of Job. Heck, I may throw in a little stereotypical alcoholism just for good measure. Your characters have to grow, change, and accept the consequences of their actions over the course of the narrative. A priest acting upon his flawless convictions who always does the right(eous) thing doesn't really get you anywhere with your audience.
Does Bayonetta seem this deep? No. More than anything it seems that it just wants to turn your idea of a protagonist on its head with over the top action and style. But perhaps the fact that it appears to be so shallow on the narrative front should tell you something about how little it should offend you.
With that out of the way, kiera has made an excellent point regarding the false comparison. I'm not going to tell you that you're stupid for being offended by Bayonetta but I certainly don't agree, either. To me, it seems like harmless, albeit over the top, fun. Sure, the primary protagonist serves the powers of Darkness but as far as story telling goes, that makes for a compelling character, does it not? Her power comes with the ultimate price. She has doomed herself to eternity in Hell, never to see Paradise.
My point is that you have to have crisis. You have to have struggle, conflict, heavy consequences for heavy actions, etc. I'd wager that if I were writing the story for this hypothetical game about witch hunting, I'd find it a lot more compelling to write about a flawed priest having trouble reconciling his faith with the fact that it seems evil is everywhere, winning all the time. Faith is a strong force but it is often tested. I'd like to see him run into battle with little more than a rosary, a sword, and a Bible opened to the Book of Job. Heck, I may throw in a little stereotypical alcoholism just for good measure. Your characters have to grow, change, and accept the consequences of their actions over the course of the narrative. A priest acting upon his flawless convictions who always does the right(eous) thing doesn't really get you anywhere with your audience.
Does Bayonetta seem this deep? No. More than anything it seems that it just wants to turn your idea of a protagonist on its head with over the top action and style. But perhaps the fact that it appears to be so shallow on the narrative front should tell you something about how little it should offend you.
I didn't think it was directed at me personally, I'm just not sure how the point kendaddy was going on about was ever relevant. Neither I nor anyone in this thread have said anything to oppose the right to freedom of speech. I've just pointed out that freedom of speech has nothing to do with a privately-owned company regulating the content of their own website.nitrostar7 said:
I think this is a very good point as well. Nothing in this game implies a serious attack on Christianity, or that Christian angels are in any way bad. Bayonetta just uses familiar concepts and words to put together a shallow, uninspired storyline with minimal effort. Using familiar ideas like 'angels' and 'witches' with a few alterations means they don't have to bother writing most of the backstory. Throw in a few bastardised references to Dante and you've got enough of a framework to stick an awesome action game into.nitrostar7 said:
well i've been sick of this conversation for days, but keira continues trolling and looking for a fight so i have no choice but to respond. angels are very much a part of the christian religion, as are halo's, as are the gates of hell, add them all up and there is no other religion this game could be talking about. i say you very much are a hypocrite for saying it would be wrong to kill witches. and nitrostar7, i'm not going to say you're stupid for not thinking she's a hypocrite for saying such an act is wrong, but here is all the proof you need. kiera, do you think asassins creed was wrong for killing christians? do you think call of duty is wrong? do you think grand theft auto is wrong? in all of these games you can kill innocents by the dozens,including human women, does this offend you? but if we play a game that has people killing witches, then that is murder and wrong? which proves that your beliefs are sacred, where mine are acceptable to be mocked and scorned. are you a wiccan kiera? are you an atheist? my cards are on the table, why do you hide your beliefs? and after saying that austrailians we're heroes and lions in world war 2, you tell me i'm insulting your country, it proves that you are just looking for a fight, because i don't know how to give a better compliment then that. did austrailians not have their guns taken? doesn't the austrailian government tell adults what they can and cannot play? than how is this an attack on your nation by simply pointing out the truth?
@ Kerndaddy
do you realize how dumb you sound? reading through your posts, i was interested in the debate you and keira were having but you seem to talk in circles and without any education or understanding of your own constitution. You also really can't complain about someones trolling if you keep falling for the bait they lay out, that good sir is your own fault.
Plus freedom of speech is a law made by your government not by "God" in which you apparently blindly follow without having your own true opinion of the matter. To go on about the point of you saying what you want, if you were hired at a job and told a customer to go fuck themselves, you have expressed your freedom of speech, however since the place you work in is privately owned they have a right to terminate your employment. I hope that is simple enough for you to understand. To be honest you kind of sound like a gun-toting redneck and you are the kind of person that makes the US the most hated country on the planet. Ignorance, stupidity, and hypocracy have been spewing from your mouth since your first comment on this article. I am not saying kiera is in the right or innocent but at least Kiera has had intelligent comments and rebuttles to your comments. It's a site about videogames, just let it go. To let you know I will not argue or respond to any comments or insults slung at me from people on any website, it's always best just to keep your opinions to yourself if you think they might cause flak if your the kind of person who can't let things slide off of your shoulders.
do you realize how dumb you sound? reading through your posts, i was interested in the debate you and keira were having but you seem to talk in circles and without any education or understanding of your own constitution. You also really can't complain about someones trolling if you keep falling for the bait they lay out, that good sir is your own fault.
Plus freedom of speech is a law made by your government not by "God" in which you apparently blindly follow without having your own true opinion of the matter. To go on about the point of you saying what you want, if you were hired at a job and told a customer to go fuck themselves, you have expressed your freedom of speech, however since the place you work in is privately owned they have a right to terminate your employment. I hope that is simple enough for you to understand. To be honest you kind of sound like a gun-toting redneck and you are the kind of person that makes the US the most hated country on the planet. Ignorance, stupidity, and hypocracy have been spewing from your mouth since your first comment on this article. I am not saying kiera is in the right or innocent but at least Kiera has had intelligent comments and rebuttles to your comments. It's a site about videogames, just let it go. To let you know I will not argue or respond to any comments or insults slung at me from people on any website, it's always best just to keep your opinions to yourself if you think they might cause flak if your the kind of person who can't let things slide off of your shoulders.
boy it looks like benevolent shadow forgot to take his prozac this morning. thanks for that constructive input and helpful lesson on the american constitution, but maybe next time you should put down the hundred proof whiskey before you demonstrate to the world your unbounded wisdom.
I'm not saying Kiera shouldn't be against the killing of human beings across the board. If she has a problem with killing human women in games, witches or not, then she should have a problem with a variety of games. In that, you are correct.
What I am saying is that she is correct about drawing a false comparison. Killing beasts refered to as angels is in no way comparable to the killing of human beings. These angels are clearly fictional and human beings are not. If you wish to split hairs by saying that all humans appearing in video games are fictional as well, you can certainly make that argument, but again, if you are opposed to killing human beings in one game, you should hold that stance uniformly.
In addition, to think that ideas like Heaven, Hell, Angels, and Demons are ideas exclusive to Christianity is to, quite frankly, wear your ignorance on your sleave. Do I adhere to any other religious belief? No (unless you count respect for the peaceful non-deification of Buddha in certain sects of Buddhism, making it a lifestyle, not a religion). But to say that we as Christians have a monopoly on the concepts of a good afterlife, a torturous afterlife, and benevolent and malevolent supernatural entities for each, is flat out untrue.
Granted, I believe most religions to be a perversion of, or completely contradictory to Christianity, but to say that it doesn't appear elsewhere and any mention of it is in direct relation to Christianity doesn't hold water.
Edit:
Kerndaddy, after that last post, you have demonstrated clearly that you have little to no concept of retaining the moral high ground, avoiding personal attacks, or winning a debate in general. Especially in the face of opposition stooping to those levels ("you sound like a redneck," etc.). That doesn't make you a bad person, but I'd think very carefully about the next post if I were you.
That's not to say, however, that I've always avoided personal attacks and maintained the moral high ground. If you were looking to get down and dirty and that's what you were going for, power to you, I guess. Just be aware of how it comes off and that it won't win you the debate.![[face_peace]](https://cdn.statically.io/img/www.ignboards.com/styles/ign/ign/smilies/classic/peace.gif "Peace [face_peace]")
What I am saying is that she is correct about drawing a false comparison. Killing beasts refered to as angels is in no way comparable to the killing of human beings. These angels are clearly fictional and human beings are not. If you wish to split hairs by saying that all humans appearing in video games are fictional as well, you can certainly make that argument, but again, if you are opposed to killing human beings in one game, you should hold that stance uniformly.
In addition, to think that ideas like Heaven, Hell, Angels, and Demons are ideas exclusive to Christianity is to, quite frankly, wear your ignorance on your sleave. Do I adhere to any other religious belief? No (unless you count respect for the peaceful non-deification of Buddha in certain sects of Buddhism, making it a lifestyle, not a religion). But to say that we as Christians have a monopoly on the concepts of a good afterlife, a torturous afterlife, and benevolent and malevolent supernatural entities for each, is flat out untrue.
Granted, I believe most religions to be a perversion of, or completely contradictory to Christianity, but to say that it doesn't appear elsewhere and any mention of it is in direct relation to Christianity doesn't hold water.
Edit:
Kerndaddy, after that last post, you have demonstrated clearly that you have little to no concept of retaining the moral high ground, avoiding personal attacks, or winning a debate in general. Especially in the face of opposition stooping to those levels ("you sound like a redneck," etc.). That doesn't make you a bad person, but I'd think very carefully about the next post if I were you.
That's not to say, however, that I've always avoided personal attacks and maintained the moral high ground. If you were looking to get down and dirty and that's what you were going for, power to you, I guess. Just be aware of how it comes off and that it won't win you the debate.
So you honestly think this game is an accurate depiction of Christianity and constitutes an attack on the religion? As nitrostar has pointed out, Christianity is far from the only religion with depictions of a 'paradise' and 'hell', and servants of Light and Dark in conflict. The game does apparently borrow heavily from Christian terminology and ideas, but to me it's just as obvious that the "angels" of Bayonetta are nothing like the Angels depicted in real-world Christianity. They're fictional monsters.kerndaddy said:
I'm a hypocrite for making the distinction between killing sentient humans and killing monsters?kerndaddy said:
Where have I ever said that I think it would be wrong to make a game where you kill witches? You asked whether anyone would like such a game, and I've said that I wouldn't personally enjoy a game where the goal is to murder innocents. I don't enjoy GTA, and I find it incredibly difficult to force myself to play Dark Side in KotOR. But I certainly don't find the existence of such games offensive in any way, and have no problem with other people playing and enjoying them.kerndaddy said:
Would it make a difference if I were? What have my beliefs got to do with the legitimacy of my arguments?kerndaddy said:
to any christians out there who feel the same way that i do about this game, buy call of duty instead, don't give these people one cent of your money. to everybody who disagrees, that's cool, you respect my beliefs and i'll respect yours. peace
I've been laughing out loud for about 15 minutes now.
I just finished reading some of the posts kerndaddy dropped on the Modern Warefare board and I can't get over the hypocracy he's felt no compunction about putting on display.
Here are a few pearls of wisdom left by the same guy that is so offended by the idea of killing hostile monstrosities that happen to be refered to as "angels."
In response to a Modern Warfare 2 PSA video that had garnered some controversy:
"this is america and we like to blow stuff up! anybody that doesn't like that needs to be pimp slapped!"
In response to gunning down innocents in an airport toward the beginning of Modern Warfare 2:
"i'm not a killer but don't push me, revenge is like the sweetest joy next to gettin pussy. or in other words, YEEEEAAAAHHHHHHH BOYYYYEEEEEEEEEE!"
You'll have to pardon the looks of disbelief on our virtual faces when you try to force false piety and indignation down our throats. You seem like more of a troll now than a man acting on his convictions.
I just finished reading some of the posts kerndaddy dropped on the Modern Warefare board and I can't get over the hypocracy he's felt no compunction about putting on display.
Here are a few pearls of wisdom left by the same guy that is so offended by the idea of killing hostile monstrosities that happen to be refered to as "angels."
In response to a Modern Warfare 2 PSA video that had garnered some controversy:
"this is america and we like to blow stuff up! anybody that doesn't like that needs to be pimp slapped!"
In response to gunning down innocents in an airport toward the beginning of Modern Warfare 2:
"i'm not a killer but don't push me, revenge is like the sweetest joy next to gettin pussy. or in other words, YEEEEAAAAHHHHHHH BOYYYYEEEEEEEEEE!"
You'll have to pardon the looks of disbelief on our virtual faces when you try to force false piety and indignation down our throats. You seem like more of a troll now than a man acting on his convictions.
hahaha, you just put your foot in your mouth friend. the name of the song that i qouted in that post is Hail Mary by tupac shakur, though you obviously didn't know that. you know mary right? as in the virgin mother of god? are you saying tupac couldn't be a christian because of his song that's devoted to Christs mother? if i can't be a christian for saying that, then he couldn't either right? if i recall, i mentioned several times in my posts that i love call of duty. modern warfare isn't mocking anybodies religion, and yes, us americans do like to blow stuff up, so i guess you showed me. Jesus Christ is the son of God, and though all the world mocks and scorns him i won't. and no matter how angry people get that i defend him, i still always will. i bowed out of the conversation and gave you the last word, but that obviously made you even angrier so what did you do? you went and dug up my old posts in order to prove what? that i'm not charles ingalls from little house on the prairie? thank you for pointing out that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of god nitrostar7. but maybe next time you should remove the beam from your own eye, before you try to remove the splinter from your brothers. we have all gotten angry and tried to humiliate people before, so i forgive you. and my firm belief that bayonetta is disrespectful to my religion stands. thanks
I could tell it was a song. It rhymes, I'm not an idiot. That doesn't change the fact that you posted it though, does it?
But if we take a moment to apply your logic, the logic you unfailingly used to justify using the song quote, you should have no problem with Bayonetta. In fact, you should be quite fond of it.
So the label applied to a song captures the essence of it, does it? As long as you call a song "Jesus Christ Died for Me" you can make is as obscene as you want, right? So because the title refers to Mary, you have no problem with it saying the revenge is the next best thing to pussy? Please, I'm sure you're a giant Lamb of God fan, too. Your rebuttal was weaker than no response at all. However, since you issued it, let's take a look at how it applies to Bayonetta.
Bayonetta contains several references to things that are quite commonplace in Christianity so regardless of the content, the mere fact that it's being referenced makes it fine. See how idiotic that sounds?
And I didn't take issue with the fact that Americans like to blow things up. I agree, we've set aside a national holiday to do just that (and it's one of my favorites). But to come in here all butthurt about monsters refered to as angels when you espouse viewpoints that include pimp slapping those that you don't agree with, you'll have to excuse my desire to point out the inconsistency in your priorities.
But there is no need to quote Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to me, my friend. I'm not the one taking issue with petty things in video games while excusing other things that would seem just as egregious, if not more so. Last time I checked, Exodus made it pretty clear that "Thou shalt not kill." I think you and I could agree that applying that to MW2's terrorist mission is foolish given that they are simply virtual depictions of human beings.
In light of that, and given the fact that the Bible has absolutely nothing to say about depicting the destruction of hostile angels (let alone taking their "halos"), doesn't it seem even more foolish to take issue with that in a game? I would have to say yes, particularly given vast contrast of realism in the way the two games are presented.
Long story short, your argument is weaksauce across the board. If you had seemed equally offended by things, I would have simply assumed that my sensibilities as a Christian were looser than yours. But no, you just had to have a problem with a game that wanted to have a different take on the classic "Good vs Evil" scenario while being just fine with gunning down people in an airport.
So yes, I had to respond. I wasn't about to let your wildly inconsistent stances to be the only way Christianity was represented here.
Edit:
Just to address the whole idea that Bayonetta mocks and scorns Christ, I've seen no sign of that anywhere.
This is a day one purchase for me and I'll play through it as quickly as possible. If the whole point of this game is battle your way into Heaven, blitzkrieg the White Throne, and assassinate the Holy Trinity, I'll be the first to shout from the roof tops how offended I am. In addition, I will issue several apologies to you publicly and via private message.
I just wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. You know why? Because this game is not an assault on Christianity.
Done and done.
But if we take a moment to apply your logic, the logic you unfailingly used to justify using the song quote, you should have no problem with Bayonetta. In fact, you should be quite fond of it.
So the label applied to a song captures the essence of it, does it? As long as you call a song "Jesus Christ Died for Me" you can make is as obscene as you want, right? So because the title refers to Mary, you have no problem with it saying the revenge is the next best thing to pussy? Please, I'm sure you're a giant Lamb of God fan, too. Your rebuttal was weaker than no response at all. However, since you issued it, let's take a look at how it applies to Bayonetta.
Bayonetta contains several references to things that are quite commonplace in Christianity so regardless of the content, the mere fact that it's being referenced makes it fine. See how idiotic that sounds?
And I didn't take issue with the fact that Americans like to blow things up. I agree, we've set aside a national holiday to do just that (and it's one of my favorites). But to come in here all butthurt about monsters refered to as angels when you espouse viewpoints that include pimp slapping those that you don't agree with, you'll have to excuse my desire to point out the inconsistency in your priorities.
But there is no need to quote Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to me, my friend. I'm not the one taking issue with petty things in video games while excusing other things that would seem just as egregious, if not more so. Last time I checked, Exodus made it pretty clear that "Thou shalt not kill." I think you and I could agree that applying that to MW2's terrorist mission is foolish given that they are simply virtual depictions of human beings.
In light of that, and given the fact that the Bible has absolutely nothing to say about depicting the destruction of hostile angels (let alone taking their "halos"), doesn't it seem even more foolish to take issue with that in a game? I would have to say yes, particularly given vast contrast of realism in the way the two games are presented.
Long story short, your argument is weaksauce across the board. If you had seemed equally offended by things, I would have simply assumed that my sensibilities as a Christian were looser than yours. But no, you just had to have a problem with a game that wanted to have a different take on the classic "Good vs Evil" scenario while being just fine with gunning down people in an airport.
So yes, I had to respond. I wasn't about to let your wildly inconsistent stances to be the only way Christianity was represented here.
Edit:
Just to address the whole idea that Bayonetta mocks and scorns Christ, I've seen no sign of that anywhere.
This is a day one purchase for me and I'll play through it as quickly as possible. If the whole point of this game is battle your way into Heaven, blitzkrieg the White Throne, and assassinate the Holy Trinity, I'll be the first to shout from the roof tops how offended I am. In addition, I will issue several apologies to you publicly and via private message.
I just wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. You know why? Because this game is not an assault on Christianity.
Done and done.
lololololololol I am an alcoholic. I love my whisky and unfortunately my Prozac doesn't work when I am drunk. Which is all the time.... I like to drink and spend all of my free time being an idiot in online forums and comment strings. WHEEEEEEE!!!! I'm sooo lonely......
kerndaddy! it is just a game! get over it. people like you need to go back in time, where you belong. stop ruining everyones fun with your religion. besides no one is gonna listen to u just cuz u say "dur dur.. this game(movie or TVshow), offends my religion. DON'T buy it! durDi duh dur" people tryed that in the past. and we all agree that they are morons.
Rimlock123 said:
Brushing this off as a pointless button masher before you even play the damn thing is stupid. The game isn't out yet and you're already bashing it just because it's Japanese. You know what's even dumber? Calling Bayonetta a nerd just because she wears glasses. How old are you? 10? As for the last thing you said: Bayonetta uses FOUR guns and a whole bunch of other sh**. She also fights angels. Not demons. She summons demons. And she's a witch. Not a half demon. Does Dante use a sh**load of torture methods to kill his enemies? No! Does Dante steal weapons from common enemies when he kills them? No! He's limited to his permanent weapons he gets from bosses. Bayonetta is similar to Devil May Cry, but there a bunch of things that set it apart. I don't mind comparisons between the two, but people who are brushing it off as a clone are idiots.
And yes; I prefer exciting, flashy RPGs and action games from Japan over boring, realistic FPSes made in the States. I like using video games to experience things that no one can in real life. It's more interesting that way. People who think Bayonetta is "too over-the-top" or "too unrealistic" to be good need to stop their bitching and let us have our fun. That goes for you too, Kerndaddy.
Kerndaddy you do realize this has no actual connection to "real" christianity. It's merely a play off of its mythology.
Brushing this off as a pointless button masher before you even play the damn thing is stupid.
How do you know he hasn't? The game's been out for some time in Japan. The region free version is also out to download for those with modded 360's. So it's very possible he has played it.
How do you know he hasn't? The game's been out for some time in Japan. The region free version is also out to download for those with modded 360's. So it's very possible he has played it.
This should absolutely appeal to gamers looking for a thrill, especially the crazy Ninja Gaiden types that eat difficulty for breakfast.
That worries me, I absolutely hate Ninja Gaiden. Still giving this a shot loved DMC
That worries me, I absolutely hate Ninja Gaiden. Still giving this a shot loved DMC
nagumo10001 said:
I honesly hope you read what he said after that because he brings up some good points.
Also from the way Rimlock said it, he sounds as if he hasn't played the game yet.
If you don't like it, don't buy it. Personally, I view the game to be an evolution of the system that was found in Devil May Cry, and being that for the most part I loved that series, I'll be buying this game.
All that other nonsense that's been discussed on this thread about religion and needless game bashing was extremely immature, and utterly pointless. It's Japan, a common theme in their folklore and their media is that demons are not always evil and angels are not always just, there needs to be balance, hence the ying-yang.
All that other nonsense that's been discussed on this thread about religion and needless game bashing was extremely immature, and utterly pointless. It's Japan, a common theme in their folklore and their media is that demons are not always evil and angels are not always just, there needs to be balance, hence the ying-yang.
Wow, believe it or not i just read that whole thing between Kerndaddy and Kiera and all i can say is, take it somewhere else.
Kerndaddy seriously, if you want to post about how were losing all kinds of rights like freedom of speech, then great, go to your church and lecture them, i dont give a D*MN what you think, this is a game forum and nothing else. Kiera has the argument spot on.
As for Bayonetta, it is a great game by a phenomenal director that is sure to please. If you have a problem with the concept or the character, then fine, don't buy it. Just to help people understand why Hideki Kamiya has gone with a character like bayonetta here is the little tid bit that gives a great perspective:
from: Scianix-Black on gamespot forum:
"silly. Those games were trying to sell themsevles on the sexuality.
Bayonetta is doing the same thing, only that's a part of the game's theme, not something they're trying to make money off of. Platinum didn't make the game because they were horny, but because it was a theme that Kamiya wanted to cover: sexuality.
With Viewtiful Joe he played with 'beauty,' with Devil May Cry he played with 'cool,' with Okami he played with 'divinity,' and now with Bayonetta he's playing with 'sexuality.'
He's said this himself, but no one knows because he's not exactly the Cliff Blezinski of video games."
Love it or hate it, the game has great combat, much better than any DMC or GOW i have played yet, and thats just playing the demo.
Kerndaddy seriously, if you want to post about how were losing all kinds of rights like freedom of speech, then great, go to your church and lecture them, i dont give a D*MN what you think, this is a game forum and nothing else. Kiera has the argument spot on.
As for Bayonetta, it is a great game by a phenomenal director that is sure to please. If you have a problem with the concept or the character, then fine, don't buy it. Just to help people understand why Hideki Kamiya has gone with a character like bayonetta here is the little tid bit that gives a great perspective:
from: Scianix-Black on gamespot forum:
"silly. Those games were trying to sell themsevles on the sexuality.
Bayonetta is doing the same thing, only that's a part of the game's theme, not something they're trying to make money off of. Platinum didn't make the game because they were horny, but because it was a theme that Kamiya wanted to cover: sexuality.
With Viewtiful Joe he played with 'beauty,' with Devil May Cry he played with 'cool,' with Okami he played with 'divinity,' and now with Bayonetta he's playing with 'sexuality.'
He's said this himself, but no one knows because he's not exactly the Cliff Blezinski of video games."
Love it or hate it, the game has great combat, much better than any DMC or GOW i have played yet, and thats just playing the demo.
Kiera, I salute your debate skills. Thank you for bringing logic and reason into an otherwise inane and uninformed sissy fight. Although the arguable irony inherent in your parting comment made me giggle...it's cool though! There's no way you could have known.