King Sekis status[]
|
Hey! Let's talk this out!
This is an active talk page. Please participate if you wish to make changes to the subject at hand. Remember to remain calm and civil throughout the discussion! |
Was advised to make a talk page after my previous edit so ill carry over my reasonings on here: King Seki and Komane were locked within the prison of Lulusia and the last thing she and Seki saw was the mother flame destroying the entirety of the country with her still on it, and we see later the destruction left a giant gap in the sea where the country used to be, it is a little unreasonable to assume they survived that, and their statuses should reflect that. Kingu0fW1 (talk) 18:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
There's no reason to assume they weren't taken off Lulusia to be brought into Revolutionary Army custody. They're shown to be inside a room, with no details on their exact location, and as we know with Sabo, the light reflected a wide amount of the island. Walrsu (talk) 03:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Unless the events we see in chapter 1060 happen out of order... when exactly would the revolutionary army have time to place Seki and Komane under custody inside a prison that is supposedly off the island before the mother flame activates? when Sabo wasn't able to fully get in contact with them before the island was annihilated, and the surviving residents were on an escape ship leaving the island itself? and they don't reach Momoiro Island until chapter 1082. chapter 1060 show multiple citizens talking with Seki and Komane on the island itself and they are next seen reacting to seeing the mother flame above them along with Seki visibly reacting to the mother flame with them as well, the aftermath shows the entirety of Lulusia's land destroyed, Sabo and the surviving Lulusia residents were taken off the island via a ship, unless that ship had a stone room big enough to fit two people in custody within it there would be no reason to assume Seki and Komane were there. Kingu0fW1 (talk) 12:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Adding to the matter, but given 1060s events the implication seems clear that Seki and Komane were on the island of Lulusia as prisoners following the citizens revolution and that they along with some citizens were caught up in the mother flame blast killing them in the process, there isnt any implication that they were taken off the island via ship, unlike what we see with Sabo and other Lulusia residents in 1082. R0cks D.G0at (talk) 23:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
There's nothing indicating they were explicitly on the island and weren't on the ship that Sabo and the other citizens were on. While the wall behind them points to them being on the island, it's not concrete enough to definitively place them on there - hence why they're unknown.
Also, Kingu0fW1, please don't move forward with debated changes because there isn't an instant response to your argument. "No moderators really engaging in the talk page" is a massive exaggeration; it hadn't even been a day since I last responded, and hadn't even been 7 hours since your last message. Walrsu (talk) 05:14, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I admit i did come off as rash in that moment, from my perspective the status was being reverted for arbitrary and speculatory reasons and the talk pages were not Given objective responses , the reasonings given for Seki and Komane being alive are overly speculative and unsupported with the chapters we have namely 1060 and 1082, like you've said yourself "the wall behind them points to Seki and Komane being on the island" the only possible way they couldve been taken off Lulusia was via the escape boat and that doesnt explain the concrete wall behind them or the Lulusian guards that spoke to them, and if this was truly the case then Sabo or the revolutionaries would have mentioned they detained Seki and Komane on Momoiro island as that was where the other surviving Lulusia residents were taken after the aftermath of the mother flame blast. Kingu0fW1 (talk) 15:25, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
My full statement about the wall included "it's not concrete enough to definitively place them [on the island]" - it could just as well be a stylized drawing, or some sort of cage brought on the ship. And of course they were talking to Lulusian guards; everybody on the boat and on the island were Lulusian citizens except Sabo, so they would have been under the guard of Lulusian citizens no matter where they were being kept. The Revolutionaries also don't really have a reason to focus on Seki and Komane's arrest; they had to deal with the Mother Flame and the existence of Imu, both much more pressing matters. Lulusia is gone, so Seki and Komane being arrested is not as important as it would have been.
Anyways, the point is that we don't know where they were, and there's a non-zero chance they were on the Revolutionary ship. Every argument so far could have applied to Moda and Sabo before 1082 as well, but it would have been incorrect to mark them as Deceased; hence why we use Unknown in the first place. It's likely they're deceased, yes, but not guaranteed. That's the point of the Unknown status. Walrsu (talk) 18:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Well i guess this topic is back up after episode 1089, it wasnt my intention to edit war but now after three sources effectively confirming that Seki and Komane were caught in the mother flames blast like chapter 1060 depicted the page was locked and reverted, without a reason provided. Kingu0fW1 (talk) 03:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Nothing has you changed; you only have the one source: Chapter 1060. Chapter 1082 does not address Seki's and Komane's statuses, so it cannot be used as a source. Episode 1060, as part of the anime, cannot be used as a source since its additions and embellishments are not considered canon. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 03:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Chapter 1082 shows the aftermath of the Mother flame blast and confirms who the survivors were. It also shows that Lulusia was reduced to nothing and left a gaping hole in the earth behind, indicating anyone who was on the island couldnt have survived, 1060 indicates Seki and Komane where in the countries prison even if we ignore the anime as a source. But it seems like the consensus indeed hasnt changed. Kingu0fW1 (talk) 03:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
I am in favor of updating Seki's and Komane's status to Deceased after the recent anime adaptation. There seems to be no doubt to me that the two were caught up in the destruction of Lulusia and we'd need some additional evidence to support the possibility that either of them could be alive. Damage3245 (talk) 22:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
One of the Admins, User:JustSomeDude... has commented in support of updating the statuses to deceased on the Discord, so I'll be updating the pages now. Damage3245 (talk) 21:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
I suggest for Seki and Komane's pages to be updated to deceased. Even if the episode isn't considered canon, it supports the possibility that they were still imprisoned right as Lulusia was destroyed. Also based on Chapter 1086, the citizens were still motivated by Betty's Devil Fruit power into being escorted to join the Revolutionaries, and no one else, so it would hardly make sense why Seki and Komane would also come along, especially as they were last seen being guarded in prison. AverageLiteratureEnthusiast (talk) 22:23, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Nothing has changed from before, so I don't see how it makes sense to change their statuses. Anything in the episodes is non-canon, it has no bearing on what was shown in the manga. While it does seem likely that they died, it's unconfirmed - which is the point of the Unknown status. Walrsu (talk) 01:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
I think the information we have from before is sufficient for them to be marked as deceased. Seki's and Komane's last known status was that they were imprisoned on Lulusia Kingdom after being overthrown. Lulusia Kingdom was subsequently destroyed. We are not shown Seki and Komane among the few survivors who were off the coast of Lulusia at the time. Therefore Seki and Komane are dead until new information comes up to refute that. The only new information we've got is from the "non-canon" anime which explicitely shows the two of them being hit by a massive energy beam. There is good reason to err on the side of caution in most cases; but this simply appears to be a case of being obstinate over what should be obvious. And if by some unlikely chance we're wrong and Seki and Komane are alive... We can just change them back to Alive on the wiki. I don't think it is a good idea to keep them Unknown all the way to the very end of the series. Damage3245 (talk) 09:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
I'd keep them unknown for now. While it seems like they were on the island when it was destroyed, it's not entirely clear from the visuals in the manga. Awaikage Talk 00:14, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Can you provide any reason based on evidence for why they would not be on the island? Their last known status was being imprisoned after being overthrown. We aren't shown Seki and Komane among the survivors who solely consisted of people signing up to join the Revolutionary Army. Damage3245 (talk) 00:21, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Wait, I have evidence that they were on the island. Here we're shown them in their prison cells while the dark clouds of the Mother Flame were forming and while Sabo's conversation was happenin. There was no time whatsoever for them to be transported off the island. Damage3245 (talk) 00:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
That page was brought up at the beginning of this discussion, and I mentioned there too - while it's implied they were on the island, it can't be proven. That same page shows Sabo, who wasn't on the island. We know there were survivors who were on the RA's boat, and it's not unlikely they would have been brought into RA custody. As Seki mentions, the Lulusian residents would have been screwed if the Marines arrived and saved him, so it would make sense to take him off the island.
Centering it as "proving they were taken off the island" is disingenuous - the burden of proof is on proving they died, not proving they might be alive. "Deceased" is an absolute statement while "Unknown" makes it clear that we're not certain. Walrsu (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
The point of the citizens being taken off the island was because they wanted to join the army. Around that time, other people were tasked with keeping Seki and Komane in prison. It doesn't change anything that the citizens could take them off the island since the Marines would punish them either way for revolting in the first place, so why does it matter to take them along? Sabo and Moda were marked Unknown at the time of Chapter 1060 because we did not know if they left in time. Later chapters had confirmed so, but Seki and Komane were nowhere to be seen, so it is the best case that they were left on the island. Being on the island is enough to conclude that they died, and by marking them as Unknown, it creates the senseless possibility that they can survive the power of the Mother Flame. AverageLiteratureEnthusiast (talk) 01:01, 14 January 2024 (UTC)