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Blogger Gavin Burrows said...

This is probably picking up on an incidental point, but is it generally thought "a pox upon" relates to STDs? I'd always assumed it was disease in general, so could be smallpox for example. But tell me I'm wrong and I will admit that I'm wrong.

Monday, 30 January, 2023

Blogger Mike Taylor said...

When someone told me that he regarded Game of Thrones as pornographic, I was tempted to reply "Do you mean it gave you an erection; or that you are afraid that it might give someone else an erection; or that the whole thing was consciously constructed with the soul purpose of giving men erections?"

Since I am that someone, I suppose it's only polite to answer the question that sort-of-kind-of directed at me.

What I think is that when you put sexualised naked women on the screen, you have changed the nature of what your show is, by making it in part about sexualised naked women; and that it's useless to pretend either that that's not true, or even than you don't know that perfectly well when you do it.

I doubt there is any part of Game Of Thrones' plot that could not have been perfectly well communicated by keeping the sexualised naked women off screen, as has been done in many other shows to no ill effect. So if there are sexualised naked women on screen it's because the show's producers wanted there to be sexualised naked women on the screen, and that's because they want us to have some specific reaction to the sexualised naked women. And we know what that reaction is: sexual excitation (with or without an actual physical reaction).

Now, I'm pretty sure there is a word for images created with the intention of producing sexual excitation.

Thursday, 09 March, 2023

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Tuesday, 14 March, 2023

Blogger Andrew Rilstone said...

I was only tempted to reply in that way: I didn't because I didn't think it would have been an entirely fair point.

It's an interesting question, though. If the Vicar trips on his cassock and falls on his bum while climbing into the pulpit, it may be funny, and we may laugh: does that make it a joke? If a very inept clown deliberately trips up and falls on his respective bum, it may be completely unfunny and we may not laugh at all: does that make it "not a joke"? Or are there categories of "accidental joke" and "failed joke"?

If a schoolboy looks at the bra advertisements in the Marks and Spencers catalogue for titillation, does that make them pornography? If someone sends me some badly done slash fic about what happened to Han Solo and Princess Leia on the planet of the nudists and I don't find it remotely sexy, does that make it not pornography? Or is there a category of "accidental pornography" and "failed pornography"?

A little while back someone on facebook -- it may have been the same person who was complaining about the woke RSC making Othello black -- draw my attention to a director who had introduced a nude scene into a production of Pygmalion (or, as it might be, My Fair Lady.) You will recall that Shaw contrasts middle-class prudery with working-class prudery: Eliza is horrified that ladies take all their cloths off in the bathroom, and embarrassed by seeing her own body in the mirror. (But she isn't bothered by the word bloody which horrifies the posh people.) The scene takes place off-stage in the text; but I can see why it might be interesting, or funny, to actually depict it on stage. (Or it might have been a really terrible idea: I wasn't there.) There commentator, however, appeared to think that because some men might be turned on by seeing a lady in the bath; the only possible reason to show a lady taking a bath was to titillate men, and the scene, and therefore the play, was pornographic, and therefore a Bad Thing.

My rejected question about Game of Thrones was whether "pornography" exists in the eye of the beholder, or the intention of the film maker or somewhere else.

Your answer appears to be that it exists in the nature of the image -- that there is an image can have an intrinsic quality called "sexualised-ness" which makes it pornographic. (I don't know whether you add, under your breath "and therefore bad" or whether it is merely descriptive: we can all agree that there is such a thing as a "violent" film; we night disagree about whether "violent" films are good in general, bad in general, or sometimes good and sometimes bad depending on other factors.)

Tuesday, 14 March, 2023

Blogger Andrew Rilstone said...


I'm not sure if "sexualised images" has a different meaning from "pornography": I'm not sure if "it's pornographic because it contains sexualised images" is different from saying "it's pornographic because it's pornographic".

A term like "indecent" has, at least theoretically, an objective standard. We might disagree on the definition, but if we agree that "more than an inch of leg visible above the ankle", "nipples" or "pubic hair" are indecent, then we pretty much know which images are indecent and which are not. Unfortunately, morality campaigners are inclined to say that indecency is always pornographic: the only reason for making that Tarzan movie was that some ladies like looking at bare chested men in loin-clothes.

Real life is messy, of course: I imagine that in any given life-drawing class there are some dirty old men who only came because they like looking at boobies; some serious art students who are no more interested in naked flesh than they would be in a bowl of fruit; and quite a lot of people who honestly like painting but think naked ladies are quite attractive as well. But I would be careful of saying "Most art galleries are full of pornography." Again, unless "pornography" is simply a different way of saying "pictures of people with no clothes on, which some people might conceivably enjoy looking at, which is fine, subject to age and consent."

Game of Thrones? A very large thread of the plot was about sibling incest: a consenting adult brother and sister who genuinely loved each other, but were horrible people in other ways. And another very large plot thread involved a brothel keeper who was a significant powerbroker. Could we have revealed Jamie and Cersie's relationship without showing any flesh; yes. Could we have just talked about what was happening in Littlefinger's establishments without showing them; or only shown the customers and clients above the waist; yes. Was the plot set up as a pretext to show pictures of willies and boobies for the benefit of people who wanted to look at those pictures? I don't think so. Ought the scenes to have been kept implicit? I am not quite sure. I suppose the violence could have been kept off-screen as well: it could have been done like one of those 1970s historical fictions where swords are thrust under people's armpits and they act being hurt. A non violent Game of Thrones would have been a different artistic work; in the same way that Lady Chatterly with the swears taken out would have been a different artistic work, or (god help me) Charlie and the Chocolate Factory with a global find and replace changing "fat" to "large" would be a different artistic work. Are there moral considerations as well as artistic ones? Yes. If sexuality, or male sexuality, or masturbation are Very Bad Things in themselves, then certainly, there's an absolute moral obligation to cut all the sexy scenes out of everything.

If nudity is the same as pornography, then it is obviously true that Game of Thrones and the National Gallery contain a great deal of nudity and are therefore pornographic (with “and therefore bad” added under your breath, or not, as the case may be.) But if some nudity is pornographic and some not, then we get back to my first thought: is it pornography because the viewer finds it sexy; or because some hypothetical viewer might find it sexy; or because the film-maker intended the viewers to find it sexy?

Tuesday, 14 March, 2023