Will Zedruu+Transcendence+Tales End+gifting to opponent make them lose?

Asked by RonPaul21 2 years ago

If Zedruu the Greathearted is on the battlefield under my control, I have more than 20 life, and I cast Transcendence then cast Tale's End in response to, and countering, the transcendence "loss" trigger, THEN, in response to that, used Zedruu's ability to gift Transcendence to an opponent with more than 20 life, would that make ONLY my opponent lose the game?

Trying to keep this brief due to the rules, but can go into detail if needed!

legendofa says... #1

Working through this step by step:

Starting point: Zedruu the Greathearted is on the battlefield and two players are at 21 life.

Step 1: Cast Transcendence. It resolves. The "20 or more life" ability triggers and goes on the stack.

Step 2: Before the triggered ability resolves, cast Tale's End targeting the triggered ability of Transcendence.

Step 3: Before Tale's End resolves, activate Zedruu's gifting ability, targeting Transcendence. It resolves, and an opponent gains control of Transcendence. State-based effects are checked, and Transcendence triggers for the opponent, putting the ability on the stack.

Step 4: The Transcendence ability affecting the opponent resolves, and that opponent loses. Transcendence is put into your graveyard.

Step 5: Tale's End resolves, countering the Transcendence ability affecting you. The stack is now empty.

Final result: One opponent has lost, and Transcendence is in your graveyard.

December 10, 2021 8:45 p.m.

RonPaul21 says... #2

Thank you for the answer legendofa, that is how I originally thought it would work, but I believe, given the following rule that, though the final result will be the same (confirming this is the point of the post, so I do thank you!), it would not exactly happen in that order:

603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They’ll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren’t the same as state-based actions.) A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.

"A state-triggered ability doesn’t trigger again until the ability has resolved" --Since it would not trigger again until initial trigger is resolved, I believe once it does trigger again, the card will already be in my opponent's control, and they will lose. Glad to know that it would work regardless, but is this how it would actually be ordered?

December 10, 2021 9:57 p.m.

legendofa says... #3

I believe the state changes when the controller of Transcendence changes. It has a different condition to check, although the new controller also meets the requirement to trigger.

If I'm wrong, I cede the floor to a more experienced person.

December 10, 2021 10:12 p.m.

Neotrup says... Accepted answer #4

@RonPaul21 is correct, the state-triggered ability can't trigger again, even though the control changed. Also, nothing is sending Transcendence to the graveyard. Either the game is over, in which case zones don't really exist, or Zedruu's control changing effect expires with Transcendence's new controller leaving the game, causing it to return to Zedruu's controller and trigger again, as it's trigger just resolved and it's condition is now met again.

December 10, 2021 10:33 p.m.

RonPaul21 says... #5

Oh I didn’t realize I regain control. I also thought things went to the graveyard this way, but to know! Looks like I will only be able to use this with one person left in the game, or with another spell that similar to Tale’s End, along with lots of mana, to repeat the process :) Thanks guys!

December 11, 2021 8:58 a.m.

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