Talk: Romulan Star Empire

Political information[]

Hmmm... I already had the political information up on the Romulan Star Empire page...

yep, i realized. no problem, there was no data lost. --BlueMars 19:47, Jun 6, 2004 (CEST)

All right :) -- User:Ottens

References?[]

Either this is a lot of speculation, or references need to be added. -- Redge 20:15, 5 Aug 2004 (CEST)

I agree, I don't think there's ever been a reference to an actual Romulan Emperor. Also, ancient republics, which I'm pretty sure the Romulans are, are a lot more complicated then what was stated in the article. Essentially they attempt to prevent the state from either becoming a monarchy (also known as tyranny) or a democracy (both were considered bad things in the ancient world. The Roman Republic is the best known example. After Rome removed their kings in 509 bc, they placed all of their authority in the hands of the Senate. The Senate served as a "legislative branch" and was composed of patrician families. They elected two consuls to one year terms as executives with veto (latin for "I Forbid") power over each other (thus two people had to agree to legislation in order for it to pass). The consuls also served as commanders-in-chief of the Roman military. To counter the patrician oligarchy the plebeians elected a body known as the Centuriate Assembly. The Centuriate Assembly elected tribunes which had veto authority over the consuls, normally over issues regarding conscription (the plebs needed this because one tactic of the patricians was to call out the army for some silly border skirmish and then seize plebeian family farms as back taxes or failure to pay off a loan). For the most part legislation did not need the approval of the Centuriate Assembly or the Tribunes, unless it somehow effected the the general population (or if it were a declaration of war or a peace treaty). So the legislature, which was the most powerful branch of government for the Romans was not really bicameral. This differs from the claims of the "upper senate" and the "lower senate" of the Romulans (although it could easily be the case). One final thing about the Romans is that in times of extreme crisis, they could appoint a Dictator who ruled the nation by himself for a specific period of time, before devolving power back to the Senate. This is what did in the Roman Republic, Julius Caesar basically marched his army on Rome and was proclaimed "dictator for life." Caesar was murdered, civil war broke out, and Gaius Julius Caesar Octavius the victor proclaimed himself to be emperor (Caesar Augustus).

What we do know about the Romulan government is that the office of Senator is an inherited position (Sela is the daughter of a Senator (TNG:Reunification)). The office of Praetor is essentially the same thing as a Roman Consul (in Rome, Praetors were judges). In Nemesis Shinzon mentions a "new government came to power." This could be taken to imply some form of peaceful Parliamentary election, however it could also imply a shift in power within the Senate, or at the worst an coup. Another intriguing aspect of Romulan society is wether or not they employ a caste system. Data specifically says caste in Nemesis, and to me this is a loaded word. But that would be more for a discussion on Romulan society, not government.

Sela was never referred to as a senator, I'm not sure where that comes from. She was referred to as a "commander" (although she was a senator's daughter, this proves nothing except that senators' daughtrs can become commanders) -- Captain Mike K. Bartel

Symbol/Logo[]

Shouldn't a logo on the front page be updated (such as the one found at ST Minutiae) Ttownfeen 09:48, 12 Dec 2004 (CET)

Both are valid symbols for the Romulans. Perhaps both should be on the page (the fact that one was phased out for another doesnt make any particular one any more "right" than the other to display.. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel

{{pna-incomplete}}[]

Someone inserted comments into the article indicating incompleteness of the article. I commented out these inserts and added the {{pna-incomplete}}. Just check the source to see what needs working on. — THOR 03:12, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Earth-Romulan War[]

I propose this article be conformed to the discussion under the Earth-Romulan War for when the war took place. This also appears to contain a lot of incomplete or unreferenced information (as others have noted). I may (or may not depending on time) insert references, add information, and conform it accordingly.Aholland 22:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Reversion[]

I reverted a bit of info stating that the Vulcan renegades (i.e., Romulans) entered the Romii system and conquered the Reman people, as we do not know this for a face. In other words, it's pure speculation. --From Andoria with Love 04:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Needs Some Tender Loving Care[]

This article really needs a good going over. Since when is the Star Empire a "nation" or "state"? Citations are incorrect (wrong episodes) or missing entirely. Where is it stated that the Earth-Romulan war was fought entirely in space? And so on. Any volunteers? Aholland 03:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

• Just an observation of an observation, but if "no Human, Romulan, or ally

has ever seen the other," how would it be that big of a leap in logic to say "that the Earth-Romulan war was fought entirely in space?" --Alan del Beccio 04:04, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm either responsible for the "fought entirely in space" bit, or I lifted the line for use elsewhere, based on an imprecise memory of Spock's capsule-history lecture that only mentioned space conflict in TOS:BoT. I have a copy of the episode for reference again, so I can remedy that, at least. For Alan's point, I don't think it's a huge leap myself, but "entirely" unnecessesarily excludes the possibility of engagements like the Gorn's ambush of Kirk on Cestus III, where Kirk's party never saw their opposition face-to-face.

You're going to clobber me on this point, I predict, but I believe it's appropriate to regard an Empire as a "State", in the sense of an established government of whatever type. "Nation" sounds imprecise though, as I think it implies a homogenous culture and a homeland only. A Nation can rule an Empire, but the Empire is more than the Nation.

I'll be happy to help with cleaning it up after I've made some more progress with Worf and some other stuff I'm in the middle of. In the meantime, I'm sold on Alan's work on the Talk:Eugenics Wars page. How about taking that format, and creating a section for community contribution to a canon-worthy reference guide? I think it will cut down on unintentional deviations. I've already stolen the idea for Talk:Kzinti. --Aurelius Kirk 04:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Just butting here for a moment, I moved the above referenced Kzinti talk to talk:Kzinti Wars. --Alan del Beccio 04:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on "entirely", which was my point.  :) Also, an "empire" is not really synonymous with a "state" in most definitions I have found (or in my limited understanding). An empire is more typically defined as a major political unit having a territory of great extent under a single sovereign authority with a very powerful leader. States are typically more modest in size. Consider: "The Romulan Star Empire (sometimes simply referred to as the Romulan Empire) was a major political and military power in the Alpha Quadrant from at least the 22nd through 24th Centuries." This fixes the verb tense, removes the political label quandry, and gets rid of "known space" as a concept (since, as an in-universe article, the conceit is all of space is known). But I'll leave it to Aurelius Kirk to get to the article to fix things, since he's interested and has played with it already. Aholland 04:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Update: In TOS: "The Enterprise Incident" the Romulan Commander does refer to "state criminals". So it appears that the Romulans at that time considered their empire to be a "state". "Nation" still doesn't work in the article, though. Aholland 22:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

So, given the above, any issues with modifying the first line to read "The Romulan Star Empire (sometimes simply referred to as the Romulan Empire) was among the major powers in the Alpha Quadrant during the 22nd through the 24th Centuries"? Aholland 15:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me, but I would recommend saying something like "during the 22nd century through at least the 24th century". Maybe? :D Also, if the Empire was considered to be a state, what's wrong with continuing to call it the modern Romulan state? Anyways, you can go ahead and implement those changes, and if anyone else has further suggestions, they can just put them in the article or bring 'em up here. --From Andoria with Love 01:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Aurelius Kirk indicated to me he was working on this, so I'll just wait and see what he comes up with. But you're right, Shran, we could call it a state and be consistent. Or not. And I'd be fine with "at least the 24th Century", as we really don't know beyond that. Aholland 03:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I've begun that work in earnest now. It's still very much in progress with lots to do. The History section has been reworked, cited, and dumped into the Romulan history page, making that article a whole lot better. The Politics section (foreign policy really) is all new and unfinished -- I still need to add reunification plots and tinker with it. I'm still doing homework for Gov, Mil and Sci section rewrites and citations.

For the intro... I wasn't opposed to the "state" designation and used it in an earlier edit, but it didn't survive after I noticed the murkiness of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant issue and had to rework things. It might pop up later, it's a useful descriptor. I guess I'm mildly opposed to the "at least" suggestion, but only because it sounds a little clunky, and for some reason, hopeful that the empire survives beyond our ken. "Through" seems to do the job to my eyes, implying the RSE made it to the 25th century mark with an unknown future. --Aurelius Kirk 11:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The Romulus/Romii Map[]

Do we know that it was in fact showing matters as of 2266? Given the extreme intermittence of contact between the Federation and the Romulans before then, it could have been dated from sometime previous, and merely the most recent information held in the Enterprise library, or perhaps showing matters as they were immediately after the establishment of the neutral zone in the first place; remember that the Humans either never learned of the connection between the Vulcans and the Romulans until TOS: "The Enterprise Incident", or whatever information from Archer and T'Pol's time was surpressed (more likely the latter, given the highly likely Vulcan distaste with revealing they could in fact have emotions at all, as a species). Given such, I'm changing the description of the map to "shown in" rather than "as of." --ChrisK 00:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Romulan Empire near the Cardassian Union[]

Something that's been bothering me substiantially is that most non-canon Star Trek reference sources suggest that the Romulan Star Empire is located in the Beta Quadrant. However, I find this hard to believe, considering when they presumably had a border with the Cardassian Union, as Dominion forces were able to cross their border to attack Federation targets. Worse off, various pages on Memory Alpha seem to list the Romulan Empire as part of the Beta Quadrant, yet I don't recall any canon source saying that it was - the same goes for the Klingon Empire. Does anyone know if there are canon sources which state that either the Klingon Empire or Romulan Empire exist in the Beta Quadrant? In all lines of dialogue, both are said to be Alpha Quadrant powers. Given the dialogue in the episodes "In the Pale Moonlight" and "Tears of the Prophets", it would seem the Romulan Empire is close to, or has a direct border with, the Cardassian Union. If the RE was located in the Beta Quadrant, I don't see how Dominion forces would be able to cross their border in order to attack Federation targets. Therefore, should the pages which say the Romulans (or Klingons) exist in the Beta Quadrants be changed, as there is no canon source that suggests they are? Thot Prad 12:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Remus[]

The article claims in a background information textbox that Remus as well as Romulus was destroyed by the Hobus supernova as depicted in Star Trek. I don't recall when in the movie Remus was actually mentioned. For all we know, Remus's orbit might have placed it on the opposite side of the Romulan sun at the time of the supernova, thereby sparing it from destruction. I suggest that the claim of Remus's destruction be removed until we have canonical proof that it was indeed destroyed too.----Antodav 07:12, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not seeing that in this article. Can you point it out? Anyway, an Apocrypha section(which is what you're referring to, Background clarifies canon info) is not canon, so we don't need canonical proof of it, it only needs to be mentioned in some Star Trek property. I will add that a supernova would be three-dimensional, and not focused in one direction.--31dot 11:35, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, I see it now. It should be removed, as we do not state what is unknown.--31dot 11:42, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

The last line of the history section says "In 2387, the Empire suffered a major setback when the supernova of a nearby star destroyed Romulus. (Star Trek)" but doesn't this (and the 2009 Star Trek Movie) take play in an alternate timeline? This wiki itself lists the movie as taking place in such. I think this line should either be removed from the canon History section or begin with "In an Alternate Timeline (Star Trek 2009)", or some such thing. Any thoughts on this? --104.174.127.237 20:30, December 2, 2017 (UTC)

The "prime" Spock comes from the main timeline where this supernova occurred, and that's what sent both him and Nero through into the past, creating the alternate timeline. -- sulfur (talk) 20:53, December 2, 2017 (UTC)

My mistake, thanks for the clarification.

Romulan flag[]

Hi, it is possible that this is a official Romulan flag (around 2375)? Or is there some other flag? Thanks. --Zipacna1 (talk) 18:01, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

There was a Romulan flag with the logo in Star Trek VI at the Khitomer Conference. [1] I think that is the official one. --Pseudohuman (talk) 19:14, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I wonder, why this flag is not mentioned in this article. --Zipacna1 (talk) 13:05, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. If you or someone has the time they should definitely photoshop high quality reproduction images of those flags for MA, I think. Since they are all somewhat important part of canon. --Pseudohuman (talk) 19:50, March 18, 2013 (UTC)

Removed speculation[]

This is just speculation and "we don't know".--Cleanse ^{( talk )} 08:56, October 22, 2017 (UTC)

Time of Awakening[]

The claim that the Romulans split off during the Time of Awakening is uncited, and seems to be fan speculation based on the fact that there's one line in ENT: "Kir'Shara" indicating some faction in this period used a bird of prey as a symbol.

I think the claim should probably be removed unless someone can find a solid canon citation for it. --MugaSofer (talk) 19:12, August 31, 2020 (UTC)