Talk:Zero-point energy

This article is really hard to follow and the format feels a bit scattered-brained. I'm not qualified to edit this article, or otherwise I would. If someone could please make it more readable, that would be much appreciated, especially since I came to this article for research on a game module I am writing.

--David3565 19:17, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This was removed:

The Zero Point Energy is the energy of the Zero Point Field (ZPF). This is a hypotheical field of electro magnetic radiation, with random direction, phase, and polarization, but with a frequencey cubed frequency spectral energy density. The ZPF has also been called Vacuum Polarization, Vacuum Energy.

When Niels Bohr showed that one could substitute (n + 1/2) for each of the quantum numbers and keep the same transition levels in the hydrogen atom. This allows the sidestepping of the problem of energy disappearing when using zero as the quantum number.

Max Planck then substituted n+1/2 to get his second theorem:

${\displaystyle \rho ^{\prime }(\nu ,T)=\rho (\nu ,T)+4\pi h\nu ^{3}/c^{3}}$ [J/m³]

Three items of interest:

1. It is independent of temperature.
2. As ν increases without bound the energy density rapidly approachs infinity. Thus there is a huge EMR field.
3. It is equal to 1/2 the numerator of %rho(%nu;,T).

Albert Einstein and Ludwig Hopf then showed that the force exterted on an electron is

${\displaystyle F=(4\pi ^{2}e^{2}v/5\epsilon _{0}mc^{2})[(\nu /3){\frac {d\rho }{d\nu }}-\rho (\nu )]}$ [Newtons]

equating the terms within the square brackets to zero, we get the differential equation ${\displaystyle \rho (\nu )=(\nu /3)d\rho /d\nu }$. which is true for ${\displaystyle \rho (\nu )=k\nu ^{3}}$, where k is any constant. This shows that a random EMR field with energy density proportional to frequency cubed will, on the average, exert no force on any charged particle.

Planck's second theorem has this frequency cubed form. So the field predicted by Plank's second theorem would not be detectable in the average. There are small effects similar to brownian mothion.

But the infinite frequency and energy would preclude this from reality, if there were not a cut-off frequency. A frequency such as the one that corresponds to a wavelength of the size of the Planck length, would work. Thus a cut-off frequency can be applied.

There was a weird merge request on the article, I couldn't find any article in duplicate so I removed the message. It was also weird that it used {{msg:merge2}} instead of the {{merge}} in use now. --metta, The Sunborn ☸ 04:05, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A lot of people will come to this article because they have seen mentions of zero-point energy elsewhere on the web. They'll be interested in finding out if there is anything to the grandiose claims of perpetual-motion machines, an imminent revolution in our energy economy, the relationship of zero-point energy to the Rapture, the Cthulhu Mythos, Britney Spears, the Zionist Occupied Government, and so on and on ad nauseam.

I think we should say somewhere: these claims are bogus. At best the promulgators are misguided; at worst, they are out to steal your money in fraudulent investment schemes. The reader deserves more than our coy silence on the subject.

As you can tell, I'm a bit exercised about this, which is why I'm not writing the text I wish for. I couldn't achieve NPOV. But somebody should try. Thanks in advance.

ACW 05:42, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Define nut-case. Some of the so-called perpetual motion machines are in fact free electricity machines which is a completely different thing. And since at least some of them seem to be working at least in some manner it seems that some of the stuff is real - and that with good funding might find theories to support them too. I admit that I need more information on both these generators and physics to make any kind of final conclusions, but at least I'm giving them the benefit of doubt. --Khokkanen 7 July 2005 15:06 (UTC)

I don't know what these free electricity machines of which you speak are; can you provide a reference? My guess is that if they appeal to the concept of zero-point energy, and claim to be cheap sources of energy, they are an example of the bogus claims I mentioned. I'm willing to take a look, though. And as you can see, I'm still not neutral enough to write any of this up :) ACW 7 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)

ACW - to explain in a very simple nutshell how you can have "free" energy without violating any laws of physics: suppose that there are a lot of high-energy but *very* weakly interacting particles passing through everything (let's say neutrinos). the temperature of ambient neutrinos is (let's say) a few million degrees. further suppose that you find some substance that (unlike almost all other matter) is *strongly* interacting with these high-energy neutrinos. all of a sudden that heats up, and you can extract useful power from the energy gradient between it and everything else. this violates neither conservation of energy nor any of the laws of thermodynamics. the idea behind extracting energy from the ZPE field is similar except the high-energy pool is provided by electomagnetic fields which are very high-frequency (think on the order of 1/planck time) and which furthermore have random phase/orientation. they are not weakly interacting, on the contrary everything is in thermal equilibrium with them (constantly absorbing and retransmitting), but if you could (let's say) shield them to any degree you would have a useable gradient that you can extract power from. such shielding is one of the proposed explanations for the Casimir effect which has (a) been experimentally demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt and which (b) appears to produce energy out of nowhere. ObsidianOrder 8 July 2005 01:01 (UTC)

ACW - In fact I don't know any free electrivity machines that claim the use of ZPE - or even Vacuum Electricity, although the 'machine' for the latter appears to have been invented. Check Cheniere for further details on vacuum energy. I am quite willing to agree that some things Bearden writes about are little nuts (take his position on scalar EM weapons for example), but some other things on that site at least appear legit - if you're open-minded enough. However, here are some of the free electricity machines I mentioned (they claim that the source of the extra energy are permanent magnets): http://www.freelectricity.com and http://www.lutec.com.au

I can't belive this is even being discussed. I think this portends the fall of western civilization perfectly( discussing whether or not these people are nutcases). By the defninition given here, all energy is free. The very thing that requires the existence of "zero point energy" also requires that it is impossible to extract for longer than the planck time. That or something aboiut physics is seriously misunderstood(which very wwell may be). Either way there won't be free enrgy.

"The very thing that requires the existence of "zero point energy" also requires that it is impossible to extract for longer than the planck time" - why is that? Perhaps you can illustrate using a work cycle based on the dynamic Casimir effect? (i.e. bring plates together flat, slide them sideways, repeat) "fall of western civilization" - right, that's a good attitude. Dunno about you, but I think Puthoff, Milonni, Haisch, Rueda, Forward, etc are as good at physics as anyone, and if they think energy from vacuum is theoretically possible (perhaps not with our current technology) that's good enough for me. ObsidianOrder 11:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't the topic include some sort of simplified description or analogy for the person without a degree in quantum mechanics and mathematics?

Definitely agree. - Omegatron 14:42, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

A naive question I have after reading this is that the conclusion made doesn't make sense because the presmises are completely contrived. The presmise is: a particle is confined to a box.

Conclusion: It cannot have 0 velocity because then its position would be infinitely indetermite, meaning that it could be outside of the box, thereby violating the premises. So, the particle must have at least some non-zero velocity, therefore it must have some amount of kinetic energy.

My problem with this argument is that the premises doesn't make sense. The conclusion is only possible given that one can make a box that can confine a particle. This is a theoretical conception and one that I do not believe can be valid in the real world. In reality, nothing can confine something like an electron. The probability function for a particle is not dependent upon that particle's surroundings, so the presmises that a box can be made that can confine a particle is not true, thereby allowing the conclusion to say anything one wants. -- 63.252.65.120

The perfect particle-in-a-box is a bit of an idealized concept, but something very close is quite easy to do, e.g. two mirrors facing each other would box in photons (of the right wavelength) or two conductive plates with strong negative charges would box in electrons. Obviously such boxes do not have perfect walls, and so you get quantum tunneling, but that does not matter since even with tunneling you still get a minimum energy greater than zero. The uncertainty principle is just an intuitive explanation of where that energy comes from. ObsidianOrder 22:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You said "but that does not matter since even with tunneling you still get a minimum energy greater than zero." Do you know of any references explaining why quantum tunneling would be a source of energy in this case? I don't know much about it, but I'd always assumed it was just a property of particles, that they can do that. Why is it that a particle which undergrous tunneling must have some amount of energy? -- 63.252.65.120

Hmm, actually it is the other way around, a box with imperfect walls has a lower energy zero state than one with perfect walls, in a sense the tunelling is an energy leak (sort of). A good intuitive way to think about it is that any gradient of potential energy (which doesn't have to be a box, the field of a point charge would do just as well, that's basically an atom for you) sets up a "tension" which prevents the lowest kinetic energy from being zero, and the steeper the gradient the higher the minimum kinetic energy state. Ideal box walls are as steep as it gets, anything in the real world is less so but the effect is qualitatively similar. The equations for a box with walls of finite potential and finite thickness are solved in most standard textbooks (e.g. Levi, Fayer, or for a more theoretical treatment Sakurai or Griffiths). ObsidianOrder 22:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)